Some of my plaques

[Michael Johnson]

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Following on from the previous Vietnam thread, here is a plaque to Sgt. G. Bedard, who was serving with the I.C.S.C. M.C.C.D. stands for "Military Component of the Canadian Delegation".

Bedard was with the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps, which at this date was Logistics, although the R.C.O.C. badge was worn for some time into the 1970s. I also have several pewter and brass mugs to him: L/Cpl Fort Churchill 1956, two for UNEF, and ends up as a Sergeant at Valcartier in 1972. They show his original service number and his later S.I.N. number.

The plaque has the Canadian and Polish flags and the Lions of Ashoka of India, representing the three nations (one western, one communist, one non-aligned) that made up the I.C.S.C.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Michael Johnson

[Michael Johnson]

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Here is a miniature group from India, for a serviceman who served in the I.C.S.C. as well.

It is interesting because of a number of anomalies:

The clasps on the Samanya Seva Medal and Videsh Seva Medal are in English, not Hindi. This might indicate that the recipient was not a native Hindi speaker, perhaps from South India. There was a lot of resentment at the Indian government's attempt to make Hindi the one official language.

There is no "Pakistan 1965" clasp to the Samanya Seva Medal. It is probably the "Kutch-Kargil 1965" clasp (see Ed's site Kutch Kargil 1965 for the full-size bar.)

The Videsh Seva Medal should have the Lions of Ashoka on the obverse. This one has three waves and what looks like a life preserver - hardly auspicious for the "Overseas" Medal!

He also served in the 1965 war with Pakistan (Samar Seva Star and Rakhsha Medal).

The I.C.S.C. Medal ends the group.

[Ed_Haynes]

[attachmentid=35255]

Here is a miniature group from India, for a serviceman who served in the I.C.S.C. as well.

It is interesting because of a number of anomalies:

The clasps on the Samanya Seva Medal and Videsh Seva Medal are in English, not Hindi. This might indicate that the recipient was not a native Hindi speaker, perhaps from South India. There was a lot of resentment at the Indian government's attempt to make Hindi the one official language.

There is no "Pakistan 1965" clasp to the Samanya Seva Medal. It is probably the "Kutch-Kargil 1965" clasp (see Ed's site Kutch Kargil 1965 for the full-size bar.)

The Videsh Seva Medal should have the Lions of Ashoka on the obverse. This one has three waves and what looks like a life preserver - hardly auspicious for the "Overseas" Medal!

He also served in the 1965 war with Pakistan (Samar Seva Star and Rakhsha Medal).

The I.C.S.C. Medal ends the group.

Miniatures and the clasps that go with them are manufactured by the military tailors with not much concern over official designs (even though there are official "sealed patterns" for miniatures held in the Ministry of Defence Medal Office). In fact, I can look at these and tell you who made and mounted them (Army Equippers, Connaught Place, New Delhi).

The language of the miniature clasps means nothing. They are seen in Hindi, in English, interchangably, and with random claps (like "PAKISTAN 1965" that never existed -- though I have seen this one more commonly on the Samar Seva Star where it REALLY doesn't belong). To reiterate: there is NO political message at all in the English clasps. Rarely do the legends on any clasps match the real clasps on the full-sized medals. And I have NEVER seen a miniature Videsh Seva Medal with the correct design.

Yes, this rogue miniature clasp probably represents "Kachh-Kargil" on the Samanya Seva Medal.

Miniatures (in any country) are, after all, only unofficial things and represent the myriad fantasies of the manufacturers and marketers.

This is an interesting little Indian miniature group, with no more than normal deviance, for someone who served in the ICSC (a fascinating and relatively scarce entitlement) and then in the pre-war and wartime conflicts in the 1965 war with Pakistan. I'd bet we are seeing a group for a junior officer (captain, maybe?), perhaps in the Dogra Regiment. The only surprising thing about the group is that he somehow avoided a Sainya Seva Medal!

Now: Where are the real medals that these miniatures try to represent???

(PS- I have intentionally stopped ANY updating on my website on Indian medals -- http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/india/medals/INDMED.html -- in part because a book is due out "soon" but also because this material -- and material from my other websites -- has been blantantly and freely stolen for others' use -- including publication in major phaleristic journals -- and I have no intent to feed the thieves any more!)

[Michael Johnson]

This is an interesting little Indian miniature group, with no more than normal deviance, for someone who served in the ICSC (a fascinating and relatively scarce entitlement) and then in the pre-war and wartime conflicts in the 1965 war with Pakistan. I'd bet we are seeing a group for a junior officer (captain, maybe?), perhaps in the Dogra Regiment. The only surprising thing about the group is that he somehow avoided a Sainya Seva Medal!

I have also run across references to the Indian Grenadiers serving with the I.C.S.C. I wonder if they might have been less likely to have spent time in J-K than the Dogras, and thus no Sainya Seva Medal. Certainly if he was an OR or JCO I would expect a 9 Year Long Service.

Yes, I would dearly love to have the full-size group, but I couldn't afford it!

[Stogieman]

Nice stuff Michael! Good to see more of these Vietnam era pieces.

[Ed_Haynes]

I have also run across references to the Indian Grenadiers serving with the I.C.S.C. I wonder if they might have been less likely to have spent time in J-K than the Dogras, and thus no Sainya Seva Medal. Certainly if he was an OR or JCO I would expect a 9 Year Long Service.

"The Book" will have the full rundown on what Indian regiments served in the ICSC in Vietnam, in Laos, and in Cambodia.

Usually, only an officer would have any reason to wear miniatures, an officer or maybe a mess servant.

The long service medals didn't come in until 1971, by which time he'd have acquired several others.

Almost everyone in the Indian military gets a Sainya Seva whether they want one or not. Until the "Andaman and Nicobar" clasp came along, the standing joke was that the only way to avoid the medal was to join the navy.

Yes, I would dearly love to have the full-size group, but I couldn't afford it!

I have never seen a complete group (except with recipients). Even single ICSC medals are scarce, same for the Videsh Seva with "Hindchin" clasp; I've never seen even a pair in close on to 30 (!) years.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Michael Johnson]

I have never seen a complete group (except with recipients). Even single ICSC medals are scarce, same for the Videsh Seva with "Hindchin" clasp; I've never seen even a pair in close on to 30 (!) years.

I have only two Videsh Seva Medals:

Bar UAR to 9th Dogra (Rakhsha Medal, Videsh Seva, UNEF)

Bar Congo to 3/1 Gorkha Rifles (who won a Param Vir Chakra there - Capt. Gurbachan Singh Salaria - posthumous). About 20 years ago Mark Sellar had a few groups and singles, but they were "common" bars.

[Ed_Haynes]

I have only two Videsh Seva Medals:

Bar UAR to 9th Dogra (Rakhsha Medal, Videsh Seva, UNEF)

Bar Congo to 3/1 Gorkha Rifles (who won a Param Vir Chakra there - Capt. Gurbachan Singh Salaria - posthumous). About 20 years ago Mark Sellar had a few groups and singles, but they were "common" bars.

Good start, 2 down, 52 (at last count) to go!

Mine are on other threads here or over at:

http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=70

I only ("only") have 45 to add!

[Michael Johnson]

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Next a plaque for UNFICYP in 1981 to Sgt. JHR (Ray) Morin. What is nice is that I have an UNDOF plaque to him for 1986-87, autographed by his mates - and one of them deals on eBay (I've gotten some nice peacekeeping items from him.) He sent me Morin's picture:

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[Michael Johnson]

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Edited April 20, 2006 by Michael Johnson

[Michael Johnson]

Here's a cleaned-up version of that reverse:

[Kameli]

Very nice plaques!

Allways liked UN-items so thank?s for sharing these!

/Jussi-Pekka

[nesredep]

Hello!

Very nice plaques.

All the best

Nesredep

[Michael Johnson]

And here's a better shot of the front.