Trying to date a photograph

[David M]

In this photo Louis is wearing the uniform of a persönlicher Adjutant
(in his case, to the Crownprince of Germany and Prussia)

So at least we know the photo is taken after 06.05.1916. The photo is taken before 25.05.1918 as he is not wearing his PHO3X. I would like
to try by means of identifying his decorations, to narrow the date of
the photo down further.

Easiest to see is his

EK1 dated 19.07.1915

Then there is the Leinenkreuz of the Johanniterorden (for which I do
not have a date), Interesting to me is to see that he does not wear
the neck cross of the Order, which he does wear in later photo’s. As
for now I do not know enough about this Order to tell if that is odd
or not.

Zooming in on his ribbonbar, I think I am able to count 11 different
ribbons. His prewar awards totalled a number of 4, so in identifying
the date of the photo, I would have to look at the 7 remaining
decorations. Am I correct in assuming that as he was a Prussian
officer, he would wear his Prussian awards first and that of his
Prussian awards, he would wear his wartime awards first? 

1.       EK2 dated 13.09.1914

2.       KO4 dated 29.05.1911

3.       ??

4.       ??

5.       ??

6.       ??

7.       ??

8.       ??

9.       ??

10.   ??

11.   ??

In an obvious later photo of Louis, which is not of a great quality, Rick
L. was able to see 15 separate medals some years ago.

Second photo:

1.EK2

2.PHO3X

3.KO4

4.PZM

5.SAlb3aX

6.BZL2bmEuX

7.BraunschwKVK

8.SLKfTD

9.LDKvK

10. Hamb HansK

11. Bremen HansK

12. ??

13. SLEK4

14. REK3

15.??

Edited April 18, 2020 by David M

[laurentius]

Dear David M

First Picture:

1. EK2

3. PDA

7. PRAO

10. Zentenarenmedaille

I hope this helps a bit, I'm not sure about number seven, since that seems to be the wrong position for a PRAO. A zoom-in of the picture might help with the identification of the rest of the ribbons.

I can't help you with the second picture, although I have a strong suspicion that the last medal on the medalbar is also the zentenarenmedaille.

1 hour ago, David M said:

Am I correct in assuming that as he was a Prussian
officer, he would wear his Prussian awards first and that of his
Prussian awards, he would wear his wartime awards first? 

This depends, when looking at Prussian medal- and ribbonbars we basically see two styles of bars. The style you refer to where Prussian decorations are worn first, regardless of the importance of the medal (where a simple commemoration medal might come before a highly regarded foreign Order). The other style we see is the one where wartime decorations are worn before the peacetime decorations, usually in the order. War time German homestate awards-wartime other German states awards-Wartime foreign states awards. This cycle would be repeated at the end of the medalbar, but with peacetime awards. 

Looking at the first picture I have a feeling you might be right, that his Prussian decorations are worn first, however, without proper identification this can not be said for certain. Hope this helps.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[David M]

Hi Laurentius

Thanks for your input!

PDA is for 25 years right? As his entry in militairy service was on 14.03.1896 he had 18 years service in 1914. There had to be another 7 years of service to get to 25. War years counted double, correct? So 1914 counted for 19 years iso 18, 1915 22 years, 1916 24 years meaning the PDA cannot be awarded until after 14.03.1917. 

Or did the prussians not count so strict?

[David M]

Could #8 in the first photo be the ribbon for the Braunschweig KVK?

[laurentius]

Dear David,

59 minutes ago, David M said:

Or did the prussians not count so strict?

The Prussians did count strict, and most awards of the PDA were after the war, most were given out in 1919 and 1920 as belated awards. It seems therefore unlikely that this is a PDA, perhaps he took part in other activities that would have 'sped up' the count of his PDA? Spending time aboard ships in the German navy before WW1 also counted double, did he perhaps go to the colonies?

It could also be the Crownorder, or some other decoration with a blue ribbon.

3 minutes ago, David M said:

Could #8 in the first photo be the ribbon for the Braunschweig KVK?

The ribbon looks more reddish to me, I'm also missing the two vertical yellow stripes which we usually see with the BrK.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[David M]

In the first pic I am also kind of missing the PZM medal ribbon. It should be quite bright, being lemon yellow?

[laurentius]

It could be the second ribbon on the ribbonbar. This colour could in my eyes be bright yellow. Although it is uncommon, it could be possible that they put the PZM after the EK2, I have seen it before, but usually on bars that had no further Prussian awards.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[David M]

So it would be

1. EK2

2. PZM

3. KO4

Louis career: *

14.03.1896 Diensteintritt als zweijähriger Freiwilliger (18.10.1896
Portepee-Fähnrich; 20.07.1897 Seconde-Leutenant 1900 im 1. Kompagnie;
11.09.1907 Oberleutnant) im Jäger Bataillon (westfälisches) Nr. 7,
1907 kommandiert zur Kriegsakademie, 21.03.1908 Versetzung zum 4.
Garde Regiment zu Fuss, 13.09.1911 Adjutant (und 20.07.1912 Hauptmann)
der 4. Garde-Infanterie-Brigade, Versetzung zum
Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr 261, 00.02.1915 Kommandeur der 6.
Kompagnie, 03.03.1915-Ende August 1915 Bataillonskommandeur,
27.01.1916 Versetzung in den Generalstab der Armee, 06.05.1916
persönlicher Adjutant Kronprinz v. Preussen, 27.01.1917 Major, 26.11.1918
ausgeschieden

[laurentius]

Number seven could be a HT rather than a PRAO. There is a big chance that he never got a RAO. He ended as a major and even colonels weren't always sure to receive a RAO. This would also explain the lack of that ribbon.

[David M]

Whats HT?

[laurentius]

It's the Hessian medal for bravery, which would also fit nicely in the second picture. The untill now unidentified medal in the 12th place has both the shape and size of this medal, and it was not an uncommon award.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[David M]

Ah I see. 

What always surprised me is that someone in his position did not get any Central Powers awards, from Austria or Bulgaria. I found a date for his Iron Crescent online, but never found any proof wearing them. 

But no OEK3 or even an OMVK or something bulgarian. Dont know if the CPs east front aide von Müller did tho.

[laurentius]

Since the Crownprince actually held a command he didn't travel as much as his father, so the people who would usually travel with him (aide-de-camps, servants, etc.) also received less decorations. A person who served as an aide on the western front had less contact with foreign powers, and therefore a smaller chance of getting a foreign award. 'Being noticed' is key here

Whether someone received foreign decorations (in our case often ÖMVK or Iron Crescents) didn't depend on rank, but rather on connection. Two officers fighting side by side might have a very different type of awards in their possession, depending on the regiment they served in.

I recall, one of the first forums posts I made back in 2017 was regarding the subject of how unlucky the average Prussian soldier was. Whereas soldiers from the German states often had a chance for an EK2 and the decoration from their state, the Prussian only had the EK2. However, if a soldier was lucky he had a regiment with a foreign inhaber, giving him a chance at another decoration. Let's say we have a medalbar with an EK2 and a MMVK2. He might have been a Prussian with a Mecklenburgian regimental commander, or simply a Mecklenburgian. This is one of the reasons even the simplest of bars can be most interesting

Kind regards, Laurentius

[David M]

Thats certainly true. I am a little over-romanticising from time to time ?

[David M]

Hi Laurentius!

I just found a pic here

which shows the ribbon of the PZM is much darker than I thought. So I do believe the first 4 are his prussian awards.

EK2

KO4

PDA

PZM

[laurentius]

I agree with your conclusion, now we have to find out the remaining seven. Would anyone be able to help us with information from the ranklists, that might give us the final clue which will help us solve this puzzle?

Kind regards, Laurentius

1 hour ago, David M said:

Thats certainly true. I am a little over-romanticising from time to time ?

It is my experience that the past often allows us, all of us, to romanticize a bit. Not to worry, we all do it, especially when around our collection

[arb]

David,

In the MWB Nr. 163/164, dated 5 April 1917, Louis' naming as a "Ritter" of the Johanniter Orden was published.  So, we know the photo was taken after that approximate date.

Andy

[David M]

Hi Andy

Great info! Thanks

[David M]

Just two questions: 1. what about the neckbadge? 2. What kind of Ritter? Ehrenritter, Rechtsritter?

[David M]

I have another issue with the order in which Louis wears his ODM ribbons. My theory of him wearing them in this order:

Prussia wartime

Prussia peacetime

Other german states wartime

Remaining peacetime 

Does not hold ground because I think his prewar REK3 is in #9 place (a plain 'purple' ribbon). And as the SLEK4 has a red ribbon with gold stripes (which I would guess to be #8, although a reversed order would feel more logical chronologically), this could hardly be #10 or #11 now could it?

The puzzle continues....

Edited April 20, 2020 by David M

[David M]

Also I so believe his SLKfTD is in #7 in the first pic?