Iron Cross Recipient Oberst Müller - can anyone please help with details?

[Family Sleuth]

Hello all,

I'm been researching my great grandfather known to us as Herbert Müller. He is listed as Oberst (retired) Christian Herbert Müller on his wife's death certificate. He was the Commander of The 2nd royal Saxon. Hussar Regiment No. 19 "Crown Prince Wilhelm of the German Empire and Prussia", from 1915 until their disbandment in 1919. There is a photo of him in the a publication celebrating the Regiment's 125 year anniversary here https://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/368539/19/0/#.

We have copies of several of the photos in this commemorative book, as well as some other photos of him in military dress. 

Since finding this book online, I have been unable to find any other details or further information on him. I was hoping someone here might be able to help me or possibly even have some record relating to his war service? Any assistance would be hugely appreciated.

Cheers,

Irene

[Bayern]

Hello .I asume that you cant read German ,or did you ? If you read German you can enter in the site of the Grimma Museum ,there is a history of the Grimma Husaren and their war service during WW1 . The Regiment departed from Grimma to the West in 1914 with 35 officers 675 men and 743 horses and took part in the avance into France acting as Cavalry ,exploration ,search of information and destruction of the enemy communications . 

[Family Sleuth]

Hello, You are correct - I can't read German. I'm using Google translate where possible but the results are often not very helpful. He took over command from Lt Col Bobsien in 1915 but the book says he was "Kommandant des Hauptquartiers der 3. Armee" before then. I was hoping to find a listing for him so I can confirm his name and any other details.

Thank you for your reply. I will look up the Grimma museum website and see what I can find.

Cheers,

Irene 

 

[Deruelle]

Irene

Here is information about Christian Herbert Müller He received the following orders and medals :

- knight cross 1st cl. with swords of the Merit Order of Saxe, 23 July 1916

- swords of knight cross 1st class with crown of Albert of Saxe,  31 October 1914

- crown on the knight cross 1st class of Albert of Saxe, 14 July 1914

- knight cross 1st class of Albert of Saxe, 24 May 1911

- Life saving medal in silver of Saxe, 20 Arpil 1896

- long service medal in 1913

- cross 4th of the Red Eagle of Prussia, 19 september 1912

- cross 4th class of Honor of Lippe Detmold on 8 July 1902

- knight cross 1st class of Saxe Ernestine, 17 octobre 1904

- knight cross of order of Military Merit of Spain, 13 Octobre 1910

Both iron cross (1st and 2nd class)

- commander cross with swords of Saxe Ernestine, 1 May 1915

- Cross of Merit of Saxe Meiningen, 1 April 1915.

I hope it will help. Have you got his death date ? Don't hesitate to show us more photos of him.

 

Christophe

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Deruelle

[Family Sleuth]

Oh wow, that's fantastic, thank you Christophe. May I ask where that information is listed?

Both his date of birth and death are listed on the back of the photo I posted above.

Date of birth: 5.6.1869 Leipzig

Date of death: 26(?).1.1948 Dresden

 

 

Here is a photo of him, dated on the back as 1912.

Another one, date unknown, but may be of interest to some......

[Family Sleuth]

And one of him in 1935 with his two sons, Christian (taller one in uniform) and Helmuth (my grandfather, the one not in uniform). This looks like it was taken at an event, at the Dresden Riding Club, of which Herbert was listed as president in 1935. (see http://www.holger-szymanski.de/gardereiter.htm)

Incidentally Christian Müller was awarded an iron cross in WW2. He ended up a POW in a camp in England, whereas my grandfather Helmuth was interned in South Africa. My mother has quite a few letters they sent to each other through the POW post at the time, which seems extraordinary.

[Bayern]

2 hours ago, Family Sleuth said:

Oh wow, that's fantastic, thank you Christophe. May I ask where that information is listed?

Both his date of birth and death are listed on the back of the photo I posted above.

Date of birth: 5.6.1869 Leipzig

Date of death: 26(?).1.1948 Dresden

 

 

Here is a photo of him, dated on the back as 1912.

Another one, date unknown, but may be of interest to some......

Hello . The first pic shows a Field officer , probably a Major ,with the uniform of the first Saxon Lancer Regiment ,Nuber seventeen . Emperor Francis Joseph .

[Family Sleuth]

Very helpful indeed, thank you. I have looked them up and that explains the funny hats in this photo.......

[Deruelle]

I used the work of the late Ehrard Roth and other published rolls.

Thanks for giving me his date of death.

Christophe

[Dave Danner]

On 16/05/2020 at 18:34, Family Sleuth said:

Oh wow, that's fantastic, thank you Christophe. May I ask where that information is listed?

Both his date of birth and death are listed on the back of the photo I posted above.

Date of birth: 5.6.1869 Leipzig

Date of death: 26(?).1.1948 Dresden

The number is a "0" with a little curlicue at the top. He died on 20.1.1948, according to his death certificate. The death certificate says that he was born in Pommlitz, Kreis Döbeln, not Leipzig (Pommlitz is now a suburb of the city of Döbeln).

The uniform in the 1912-dated photo should be that of Ulanen-Regiment Nr. 18. That was his regiment before being sent to command the Militärreitanstalt in Dresden in 1909.  Then-Rittmeister Müller was sent to replace the commander of that institute on 15.2.1909, when the commander was on temporary duty elsewhere. He was officially transferred there on 22.5.1909 as the temporary commander (mit der Wahrnehmung der Geschäfte beauftragt), and was named commander on 23.5.1910 when he was promoted to Major. He remained in command there until the war began, receiving a Patent as Major on 1.10.1912.

He was on the staff of Armee-Oberkommando 3 (High Command of the 3rd Army) when he received the Swords to his Knight 1st Class with Crown of the Albrechts-Orden. Other than that, and your reference to him being the commander of that command's Hauptquartier, I don't have any information on him from mobilization in August 1914 until he took command of HR 19 on 6.7.1915. He was promoted to Oberstleutnant on 30.11.1917, retired on 31.3.1920, and was given the Charakter of Oberst on 30.7.1920. After HR 19 was disbanded, he commanded Kavallerie-Regiment 19 of the provisional Reichswehr from May 1919 to April 1920.

Christophe, one error in your list of dates. He received the Crown to his Knight 1st Class of the Albrechts-Orden in July 1914, not 1907.

[Deruelle]

Thanks Dave, I have updated my post.

[Bayern]

On 17/05/2020 at 02:27, Family Sleuth said:

Very helpful indeed, thank you. I have looked them up and that explains the funny hats in this photo.......

The two officers with metallic pickelhaube arefrom the Karabinier regiment , light blue ueberrock with black facings and white breeches, .the officer with peaked cap probably is a Karabinier also . the officer with dark blue uniform and litzen on collar and cuffs could be a regimental Doctor 

[Family Sleuth]

My goodness, you gentlemen are amazing! Thank you so much Dave and Christophe, you have given me plenty to go on. I found this the other day with your lead Christophe......

 

Now I'm busy working out what it all means.

Dave, I suspected he was born in Pommlitz since that was his family's rittergut. Where did you access his death certificate? I'm clearly not very good at this because I have been unable to find any record of a birth, death or marriage certificate online. 

Hopefully I'll be able to post a few photos that may be of more interest to your group. I'm just waiting for my Mum to unpack a couple of old photo albums. There should be some in there that are of more general historical interest.

Hello Bayern,

Looking through the old photos, I can't help thinking that the uniforms put the present day military garb to shame. Thought I doubt they were very practical or, more importantly, provided much protection. Nevertheless they certainly make the wearers look very impressive.

[Family Sleuth]

On 21/05/2020 at 08:57, Dave Danner said:

The number is a "0" with a little curlicue at the top. He died on 20.1.1948, according to his death certificate. The death certificate says that he was born in Pommlitz, Kreis Döbeln, not Leipzig (Pommlitz is now a suburb of the city of Döbeln).

The uniform in the 1912-dated photo should be that of Ulanen-Regiment Nr. 18. That was his regiment before being sent to command the Militärreitanstalt in Dresden in 1909.  Then-Rittmeister Müller was sent to replace the commander of that institute on 15.2.1909, when the commander was on temporary duty elsewhere. He was officially transferred there on 22.5.1909 as the temporary commander (mit der Wahrnehmung der Geschäfte beauftragt), and was named commander on 23.5.1910 when he was promoted to Major. He remained in command there until the war began, receiving a Patent as Major on 1.10.1912.

He was on the staff of Armee-Oberkommando 3 (High Command of the 3rd Army) when he received the Swords to his Knight 1st Class with Crown of the Albrechts-Orden. Other than that, and your reference to him being the commander of that command's Hauptquartier, I don't have any information on him from mobilization in August 1914 until he took command of HR 19 on 6.7.1915. He was promoted to Oberstleutnant on 30.11.1917, retired on 31.3.1920, and was given the Charakter of Oberst on 30.7.1920. After HR 19 was disbanded, he commanded Kavallerie-Regiment 19 of the provisional Reichswehr from May 1919 to April 1920.

Christophe, one error in your list of dates. He received the Crown to his Knight 1st Class of the Albrechts-Orden in July 1914, not 1907.

Great, that means he was in the same regiment as his brother in law, Colonel Ferdinand Alexander Platzmann. Adds an interesting piece of information from a family history perspective at least.

https://www.steynberc.de/die-geschichte-des-dorfes/das-strassenangerdorf/oberst-ferdinand-alexander-platzmann

Thank you Dave, I really appreciate all the information you have provided. 

Irene

[Dave Danner]

Here is the link to the Dresden death certificates: https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/9153/42636_6425_1942023-00211?pid=23148555&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=DbM2609&_phstart=successSource

That is US-based Ancestry.com. Assuming you have an account, you'd probably need to change the top level domain to the Australian equivalent.

[Bayern]

22 hours ago, Family Sleuth said:

My goodness, you gentlemen are amazing! Thank you so much Dave and Christophe, you have given me plenty to go on. I found this the other day with your lead Christophe......

 

Now I'm busy working out what it all means.

Dave, I suspected he was born in Pommlitz since that was his family's rittergut. Where did you access his death certificate? I'm clearly not very good at this because I have been unable to find any record of a birth, death or marriage certificate online. 

Hopefully I'll be able to post a few photos that may be of more interest to your group. I'm just waiting for my Mum to unpack a couple of old photo albums. There should be some in there that are of more general historical interest.

Hello Bayern,

Looking through the old photos, I can't help thinking that the uniforms put the present day military garb to shame. Thought I doubt they were very practical or, more importantly, provided much protection. Nevertheless they certainly make the wearers look very impressive.

Hello F , Present day military uniforms are a misconception . they are manufactured with almost no other parameters than supossed economy ,practicity and protection thats the Combat ones . the everyday ones were generally speaking drab and plain . Regarding the practicity of the old uniforms you must think that they were tailor made for officers and senior NCOs in some cases and in the case of the soldiers were at minimum adapted to each man by regimental tailors in consequence they fitted well on the body and felt comfortable . after all the old uniforms served well 

[Family Sleuth]

Thanks for the link Dave. I can access ancestry.com for free at our National Library. Hopefully it will reopen soon because my huge list of search queries is increasing rapidly.

[Family Sleuth]

Hi Bayern, you are right. The tailoring makes all the difference. Other than a much better looking result, I agree fit and comfort would have been important factors. From what my husband has told me, a lot more thought now goes into the design of combat uniforms taking into account both comfort and manoeuvrability, as well as protection. Spending days on end operating inside an armoured vehicle would make those pretty important considerations.

[Bayern]

Hello F , Once ,thirty years ago I served for a short time in a Transmissions squadron of the Argentinian Army under the command of the then second Cavalry Brigade . the squadron operated with M113 armoured vehicles .well I discovered that the use of breeches and riding boots was very comfortable inside the vehicle .It was against the Regulations but the squadron Chief was my friend and soon he do the same . And the Brigade Commander ? well ,He was a Cavalry Officer before being General and only smile