British Uniform?

[saxcob]

I am currently doing some resaerch on a painting (1827) of George Jones RA (6 January 1786 – 19 September 1869). He was a British painter and Keeper of the Royal Academy, most famous for his paintings of military subjects incl. Waterloo.

 

The scene shown here is just a smal section of a larger painting depticting a smal German city on the Rhine.

 

My interpretation is that it shows a young couple on the rigth side and the wife’s mother as well as a priest on the left.

 

The groom seems to wear a red jacket with a black collar and golden embroidery as well as an unknown headgear.

 

Is this a British uniform and if so which one?

 

Any help would be highly appreviated.

[saxcob]

Thank you.

The painter actually was a soldier himself so he should have had the necessary knowledge.

Since none of our British experts reacted I wonder whether it is a uniform at all?

[saxcob]

The nose - the chin (!) - the eye sockets - you could be right.

 

Jones bore a strong resemblance to Wellington and was sometimes mistaken for him.

 

Would any of the experts be so kind as to enlighten us with respect to the uniform?

 

[Trooper_D]

The mess jacket you show, Simius, was an evolution of the stable jacket, which - as the name suggests - was an undress jacket worn when working in the stables.

However, I think it is a red herring in this particular case. As the OP states, the figure is from a small detail and I would suggest that the ‘absence’ Of buttons etc is simply down to the small scale the artist is working in, here.

As an aside, I agree with you that the figure is wearing a gorget and would add that the black area round his neck is a representation of the black silk stock officers of the time wore and which you can sort of see in the interesting image of the working dress of Royal Sappers and Miners you posted. I suspect that this ‘working dress’ was more generally the undress worn by officers of the period, which would have been worn rather than Full Dress for 'walking out'  - as shown in the OP's picture.

[Trooper_D]

8 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

I was struggling to recognize what the black fabric around the subject's neck is, but you successfully identified it as a "Black silk stock"  (which I assume is like a neckerchief) that officers of this period wore. 

Officers were lucky. As this site explains, for ordinary soldiers, "[a] three and a half inch (8cm) leather stock was worn around the neck to preserve a 'soldierly' aspect, which was rarely allowed to be discarded even on campaign." 

These two images, to be found on many Pinterest pages, are said to be of a 5cm high example in the The Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh.

It was, apparently, also worn by the US Marine Corps and gave rise to their nickname of 'Leathernecks' (or so says Wikipedia!).

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Trooper_D

[saxcob]

Thanks to both of you for your support!

Could these "Studies of Waterloo" by Jones show both the uniform and the headgear?

[peter monahan]

3 hours ago, Trooper_D said:

Officers were lucky. As this site explains, for ordinary soldiers, "[a] three and a half inch (8cm) leather stock was worn around the neck to preserve a 'soldierly' aspect, which was rarely allowed to be discarded even on campaign." 

I wore one of these pretty regularly while doing Napoleonic era living history.  Always a big hit with the crowds. 

I once made one in a real hurry for a fellow  unit member who'd lost his.  The only leather I had to hand was 'sole bend' - 3 to 4 cm thick.  Damn near killed the poor fellow the first time he wore it!  Opps!

[Trooper_D]

30 minutes ago, peter monahan said:

I once made one in a real hurry for a fellow  unit member who'd lost his.  The only leather I had to hand was 'sole bend' - 3 to 4 cm thick.  Damn near killed the poor fellow the first time he wore it!  Opps!

A few years ago, when browsing old editions of the (London)Times online, I was astonished to read a letter in an edition from the 1850s (I seem to recall) from a recently-retired officer decrying that soldiers were still expected to wear the leather stock and noting that - never mind the difficulties of fighting whilst wearing it - he had observed men fainting on parade because of the restriction to their blood supply caused by it. Your friend was having a completely historically authentic moment, it seems. It must have made him proud - once he came round  

Edited July 16, 2020 by Trooper_D

[peter monahan]

That's what I tired to tell him, but he wasn't having any.

 

[saxcob]

I don't mind and just assume that the British colleagues just do not know either.

Thus I am even more grateful to you for having indentified the soldier as a self portrait of the painter.

This is now confirmed by an other example (see below).

Since I was unfortunate enough to have read your last post pre edit, I sincerely hope that you will not have second thoughts about having helped a Central European who just happens to live in Belgium ;-).

 

[Tony Farrell]

It's known as a forage cap - or camp hat, tent cap etc. Essentially a peakless soft bonnet worn in undress uniform as opposed to shakos or helmets. Typically worn around camp for training, it was also worn on campaign in lieu of standard regimental head dress - particularly if such had been destroyed or lost. They lasted into the late Victorian era before being supplanted by Kilmarnocks, glengarries, Atholls and Balmorals, but one could say they survived beyond that as Tams and the GS caps of WW2 - which are not that much removed from caubeens and berets.

[saxcob]

On ‎02‎/‎07‎/‎2020 at 23:33, Simius Rex said:

I looked up George Jones and found a picture of him as an older man.  Do you think it's possible that Mr. Jones included himself in the painting?  I am seeing an uncanny resemblance between Jones and the figure in the painting.  Simi. 

 

On ‎22‎/‎07‎/‎2020 at 16:47, Tony Farrell said:

It's known as a forage cap - or camp hat, tent cap etc. Essentially a peakless soft bonnet worn in undress uniform as opposed to shakos or helmets. Typically worn around camp for training, it was also worn on campaign in lieu of standard regimental head dress - particularly if such had been destroyed or lost. They lasted into the late Victorian era before being supplanted by Kilmarnocks, glengarries, Atholls and Balmorals, but one could say they survived beyond that as Tams and the GS caps of WW2 - which are not that much removed from caubeens and berets.

Thanks to both of you! Your invaluable help is much appreciated.

[saxcob]

The painting shows a scene in the town where I used to live. The building in the middle was demolished in 1959.

Jones was part of the army of occupation in Paris after the battle of Waterloo. A decade later, in 1825 he took a trip down the river rhine where he made the scetches for this painting which was exhibited in London in 1827.

Thanks to you we now know that the soldier is nobody else than Jones himself. He obviously leads a local lady to a coach.

Since Jones married much later and someone of his own nationality we may proceed from the assumption that this was all the result of his imagination.

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by saxcob

[Trooper_D]

1 hour ago, saxcob said:

The painting shows a scene in the town where I used to live. The building in the middle was demolished in 1959.

 

Why on earth would someone want to demolish such a splendid building?? Fortunately, the tower still stands, Google tells me.

May I ask where the Jones picture is exhibited, please? I ask because he painted another version of it which can be seen below, and which is exhibited in Nottingham Castle Museum and Art Gallery.

Source: https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/andernach-prussia-47436#

You will note that he didn't feel the need to portray himself in this version, for some reason.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Trooper_D

[saxcob]

Well spotted, Dr Watson!

I agree, this was really a crime. The beautiful mid 17th century building needed to go in order to give way for a malt factory which was itself demolished recently.

The smell of it still haunts me today.

In the local newspaper I found some reports on the before/after situation.

The painting is exhibited in my living room ;-).

Jones did in fact produce two versions. The one you show was painted by him in 1863 almost 40 years later.

Edited July 26, 2020 by saxcob

[saxcob]

Simi, it is (just) a Jones and (unfortunately) not by his friend Turner.

Until now I thought that mom is just giving her daughter some good advise on how to behave in England. However, you might be right ad she is in fact trying to hold her back. At least there is some sort of urgency: the coachman is already leaving the house while a boy is promptig the couple to get on the coach.

As Trooper_D rightly pointed out, the 15th century tower still stands - but only just.

French troops tried to blow it up in 1689 only to produce a hole of the size of a smal car.

Edited July 27, 2020 by saxcob

[Trooper_D]

On 27/07/2020 at 07:30, saxcob said:

French troops tried to blow it up in 1689 only to produce a hole of the size of a smal car.

Vandals! It's still a very fine tower, though

[saxcob]

2 hours ago, Trooper_D said:

It's still a very fine tower, though

The locals are indeed still very proud of it: