Jäger Bn4

[ccj]

 

Another interesting photo 

 

[ccj]

More photos from res jager bn 4

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by ccj

[v.Perlet]

10 hours ago, ccj said:

Im not sure what you mean and why you would take back anything...

 

There are variations from time to time on the numbers and cyphers on shoulder straps. The tunic is 100% correct and the straps are original to the tunic. I have send photos to a few other advanced collectors for iopinions of this tunic inside and out. 

 

As for the photos of Vizefeldwebel Kasparow,  He was a NCO in Reserve Jager Bataillon Nr. 4

 

 

 

 

Hello ccj,

 

Just because of a Prussian uniform showing a 4, without wearing a Jaeger Tschako- doesn't imply to me that this person was in the Magdeburger Jaeger Btl. 4.  so is there something about the collar lace (black and white photo) that indicates he is?

 

I am not knowledgeable in regards to uniforms - except a bit on Bavarian Ulan uniforms.

If however there are clear (to me unknown) identification marks on his uniform aside from the 4, or an e.g. book source which confirms that e.g. Vizefeldwebel Kasparow was from the Magdeburger 4th JBtl.

Then naturally I would take back my wrong assumption or doubts expressed in my post.

The last photo of Walter Labesehr doesn't even show a collar lace - simply a 4.

 

To ride on your nerves one more time -sorry, if he (Labesehr) or Heinrich Puhlmann served in a Prussian Jaeger unit - did only Prussian Jaeger units display 2 Kokarden on their cap? - since e.g. the two Bavarian Ulan regiments also display 2 Kokarden on their Kraetzchen/Schirmmuetze. So the cap won't be a means towards identification would it?

So sorry again to trouble all the experts on the matter- I am just trying to gain some insight.

 

BTW, which source did you find in regards to these photos?

 

Regards

v. Perlet

Edited January 29, 2022 by v.Perlet

[GreyC]

"Just because of a Prussian uniform showing a 4, without wearing a Jaeger Tschako- doesn't imply to me that this person was in the Magdeburger Jaeger Btl. 4."

1) Jäger not only wore Tschakos, but also "normal" field caps.

2) The "4" in itself is not indicative of a Jäger unit. However piping on flaps or other parts of the tunic in combination with the Aufschläge and the Mützenband and the number (4) are.

In b/w photos the identification of colours are more difficult but with a bit of experience possible in most cases, especially if other markers like the ones mentioned above help.

With regards to your question about the Kokarde: All German troops of the army (not navy) wore two Kokarden from 1897 on. The upper one was always black, white red, the lower in the specific coulors of the state that the troops come from. Roughly speaking.

Find attached a colourised photo of a soldier from 4th JBtl. in his Bunter Rock.

Edited January 29, 2022 by GreyC

[ccj]

Hi v Perlet, I understand what’s you men. As GreyC already mentioned it can be hard to discern uniform colors in Black & White Photos but many people do acquire a talent to identify. 
the photos I posted are from the regimental history of RJN4.  THE PRUSSIAN posted links to both Magdeburger Jäger Bn 4 and Reserve Jäger Bn 4.  
 

attached are two straps. One from the old style uniform and the other from the 07/10 uniform.  If you aren’t familiar with uniforms you have both an exciting and frustrating journey ahead of you. There are so many variations.

 

Here are other strap with a 4 in the number 

 

credit “Under Arms for the Kaiser” by Michael Kelso

his book has a huge array of straps and boards along with tunics and items from fellow forum members. 
 

[GreyC]

In addition you´d have to take into consideration the differences in design between Kammerstücken (Government Issue) und Eigentumsstücken (privately manufactured and purchased).

GreyC

[ccj]

Very true, thanks for adding that fact.

[v.Perlet]

Hello ccj and GreyC, thanks a lot for your patience and time.

 

If a colored photo or an original uniform is displayed it is off course easier (not easy for a guy like me) to determine the unit instead of having to judge or guess from a b/w photo.

The question to me remains in two parts.

1.The original uniform posted by ccj - is that of a Jaeger unit (never mind the 4) why?

Because of the green bordered shoulder straps? or the cuff ribbon? or what?

2. The b/w photo showing Oberjaeger Walter Labesehr (never mind the 4) if there would be no link to that person how would you identify him being from a Jaeger unit?

 

E.g. as an example please check the b/w photo that I posted and then tell me from which Regiment he is.

Lucky for you guys? at least the photo shows a certain helmet and a national/state emblem. Imagine the same photo without the "specific" headgear and the state-emblem and the Fangschnur (catch-line?).

 

Or even in color

 

Thanks again guys

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited January 29, 2022 by v.Perlet

[v.Perlet]

And gents, I do not intend to go back to the issue of the 4 being a regiment designation and not a battalion numbering.

 

This is what i came across during my research, so just take it as information seen by me - nothing else.

Regards

v.Perlet

 

 

Das Jäger-Regiment zu Pferde Nr. 4 war ein Kavallerieverband der Königlich Preußischen Armee

Aufstellung

Durch Allerhöchste-Kabinetts-Order (A.K.O.) vom 1. Juli 1906 wurde zum 1. Oktober des Jahres die Aufstellung eines weiteren Jäger zu Pferde Regiments zu je fünf Eskadrons befohlen.

 

Zu dieser Aufstellung mussten abgeben:

• das Husaren Regiment Nr. 5 die 2. Eskadron
• das Ulanen Regiment Nr. 8 die 2. Eskadron
• das Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Nr. 3 die 1. Eskadron

des Weiteren wurden die bisher selbstständigen

• Eskadrons Jäger zu Pferde Nr. I und XVII in das neue Regiment eingegliedert.

Als Garnison wurde die Stadt Graudenz zugewiesen.

 

Organisation und Verbandszugehörigkeit 1914

• XVII. Armee-Korps - Danzig

Kommandierender General: General der Kavallerie, General-Adjutant August von Mackensen

• 35. Infanterie-Division - Thorn

Kommandeur: Generalleutnant Henning

• 35. Kavallerie-Brigade - Graudenz

Kommandeur: Generalmajor von Unger

• Regimentskommandeur: Oberstleutnant Freiherr von Loen

• Stiftungstag: 1. Oktober 1906

• Garnison: Graudenz

Aufstellung

Durch Allerhöchste-Kabinetts-Order (A.K.O.) vom 1. Juli 1906 wurde zum 1. Oktober des Jahres die Aufstellung eines weiteren Jäger zu Pferde Regiments zu je fünf Eskadrons befohlen.

 

Zu dieser Aufstellung mussten abgeben:

• das Husaren Regiment Nr. 5 die 2. Eskadron
• das Ulanen Regiment Nr. 8 die 2. Eskadron
• das Grenadier Regiment zu Pferde Nr. 3 die 1. Eskadron

des Weiteren wurden die bisher selbstständigen

• Eskadrons Jäger zu Pferde Nr. I und XVII in das neue Regiment eingegliedert.

Als Garnison wurde die Stadt Graudenz zugewiesen.

Erster Weltkrieg

Nach der Mobilmachung im Juli 1914 wurde der Regimentsverband aufgelöst und die Eskadrons - ihrer Bestimmung als Melde- und Verbindungsreiter gemäß - auf verschiedene Infanterie-Divisionen aufgeteilt.

Die Eskadrons wurde ausschließlich im Osten eingesetzt und versahen ihren Dienst in Russisch-Polen, Galizien, Rumänien und Kurland. Der Kavalleriestatus blieb bis Kriegsende erhalten.

Uniform

Muster wie Kürassiere, jedoch mit folgenden Änderungen:

• Graugrüner Koller (ab 1910) Waffenrock mit schwedischen Aufschlägen, Aufschläge und alle Vorstöße hellgrün, Schulterklappen jedoch mit hellblaue Vorstöße als Abzeichenfarbe. Um Kragen und Aufschläge verliefen hellgrüne Borten, die einen breiten Mittelstreifen und schmale Randstreifen in der Abzeichenfarbe hatten. Für Offiziere bestand der Besatz in goldener oder silberner Tresse mit schmalen Randstreifen in Abzeichenfarbe.

Feldmütze: Von graugrüner Farbe mit hellgrünen Besatzstreifen und hellblauen Vorstößen

• Helm: Ähnlich wie Kürassierhelm, aus geschwärztem Stahlblech mit Dragoneradler. Ränder mit neusilbernen Einfassungsschienen. Spitze wie Dragonerhelm mit kleeblattförmigem Aufsatz. (Offiziere mit gekehlter Spitze wie Kürassier-Offiziere.) Gewölbte Schuppenkette aus Tombak.
• Kürassier Stiefel aus naturbraunem Leder
• Lanzenflagge weiß-schwarz

Literatur

• Hugo F.W. Schulz: Die Preußischen Kavallerie-Regimenter 1913/1914, Weltbild Verlag 1992
• Jürgen Kraus: Die deutsche Armee im ersten Weltkrieg, Stefan Rest (Hrsg.) Ingolstadt 2004

Edited January 29, 2022 by v.Perlet

[ccj]

v Perlet, it’s not easy at all to identify the regiment (or Battalion) one belonged to without detail. 
I wish Rick Lundstrom were still alive as he would eagerly explain in detail how many experts on uniforms and period photos have learned to examine good quality ordinal photos. Some can look at photos and discern piping colors and ribbon colors to help identify.  There’s so much that goes into it. 
I don’t think one can look at any photo and identify the man’s unit and not always whether they’re  jager, infantry, train, etc unless there are several it identifiers. 

However, back to the original posted tunic. It’s easy to determine it to be a Jaeger NCO tunic because of the tunic color and piping color. Had I been given a simple low quality photo of a soldier with no details of their cuffs and straps it would be hard to tell much. 
regimental histories, named photos, photos with the city/photographer information help identify many photos as I’m sure you’re aware. 
Rick, and I’m sure others, could write a detailed explanation of the efforts taken to learn how to examine period photos to discern possible colors. Idk 

 

[GreyC]

I´d chime in with my experienced colleague and reiterate what I already wrote. More often than not It is not a single detail that will allow to identify the unit, it´s the total result of identifiable markers that does the trick.

By the way Jäger zu Pferde were only constituted in Germany in 1901 and are a totally different ballgame with, as you can see from your own description, totally different uniforms than those of the Jäger, wearing a Koller much like the Kürassiere. From 1913 the uniforms of the new formations from then on had simiIarities with those of the Dragoner. I don´t collect German cavalry, so here only one example for Jäger zu Pferde in fieldgrey tunic of the 2nd regiment.

GreyC

 

 

 

[ccj]

Wonderful photo…. I happen to have an officers tunic from JzP2

[v.Perlet]

Hello GreyC

 

yes?, obviously there are 3 different units in play

A mounted Jaeger-Regiment 4

A Reserve  Magdeburger Jaeger Battalion 4

A Magdeburger Jaeger Battalion 4 - and I assume that one is actually termed as the Naumburger Jaeger Btl. 4

 

Okay - thanks for everything and I will leave you guys in peace now.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[GreyC]

1 hour ago, v.Perlet said:

yes?, obviously there are 3 different units in play

No, only two. The Jäger zu Pferde flap had lightblue piping.

 

CCJ: Grreat tunic. Congrats!

GreyC