Deutschritter Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 Gentlemen, I am looking for more information about Carl/Karl Braun. He joined the Dragoner-Regiment König Karl I. von Rumänien (1. Hannoversches ) Nr. 9 in Metz 1905, where he was promoted to Leutnant (maybe 1 April 1907 with Patent from 19 July 1905)? Oberleutnant (???), Rittmeister (Patent: 18 August 1915). He was already a flyer 1911, he became an Alter Adler 1912 and served in the Fliegertruppe throughout the war (Flieger-Ersatz-Abteilung 3, Kampfgeschwader 2, maybe more???). He was probably discharged 1919 or 1920. Later he would become a well known Sprotflieger, 1941 he was promoted to NSFK-Obergruppenführer. One source even says, he was a Oberst der Reserve of the Luftwaffe. EK II and I in WW I. Anything you have on him would be great. More WW I decorations? Thank you!!! Picture as NSFK-Gruppenführer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soderbaum Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Hi, some minor adds The MWB gives his promotion as follows: Lt 27.01.1907 mit P19.07.1905, Oblt 04.07.1914, Rittm 18.08.1915, zu Res 16.12.1918. This kind of info is easily found/searchable on ancestry.de. He ended up as Oberst zV during WW2. I have him in FB 4/2 when the War started, but I dont knew exactly when he joined the Fliegertruppe but probably during 1912 to 1913. Gunnar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) 20 hours ago, Deutschritter said: he became an Alter Adler 1912 Hi, could you provide a source for that? According to my list of the Alte Adler, published in full by Günter Schmitt in his book Als die Oldtimer flogen, he is number 739 on the list, having gotten his license on 28th April 1914. He is also listed in the magazine called Flugsport of 1914: No. 739 Braun, Karl, Ulm a. D., geb. am 21. Dezember 1888 zu Tettnang, für Zweidecker (A.E.G.), Flugplatz Nieder-Neuendorf, am 28. April 1914. So 1912 seems to be a wrong information. He never officially left the DR 9 during the war but was "kommandiert zur Dienstleistung" to the Inspektion des Militärischen Luft- und Kraftfahrwesens at least since 1913. He already had the Kronenorden 4th class then. The Flugplatz Nieder-Neuendorf was the base for the Flugtechnische Abteilung der Allgemeinen Elektrizitätsgesellschaft (AEG) in Hennigsdorf since about 1910. Best, GreyC Edited February 24, 2022 by GreyC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutschritter Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) Thank you, Gentlemen! I wish I could afford ancestry.de, but ... The promotion dates are great! 2. Kompanie/Flieger-Bataillon Nr. 4 in Metz, that makes sense. Yes, Alter Adler on 25 January 1912 (Flugplatz Döberitz) with Eindecker „Etrich Taube“ (Nr. 155), but he, according to the Führerlexikon (pp. 71-72), already received the military Führerschein Nr. 5 1911 (Lehr- und Versuchsanstalt für das Militär-Flugwesen), the Kronenorden was awarded for flying around the Metzer Kathedrale and taking part in the Kaisermanöver as a flyer. We are getting closer ... thanks to you all! Please keep the informations coming. Maybe more about his familiy? His wife Elisabeth „Else“ von Haniel often flew as Bordmonteur with him, they had three children. Maybe son Karl Heinz Braun (b. 1915) als served with the Luftwaffe (Flak-Hauptmann until 1943?). Edited February 24, 2022 by Deutschritter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Deutschritter said: with Eindecker „Etrich Taube“ (Nr. 155), That is interesting, so he is featured twice in the list, as he is also listed as 739 as stated above. There are rare cases where this is the case, too. These were licensed for Eindecker and then in an extra exam for double-decker (Doppeldecker). I have some photos of FEA 9, also from Darmstadt, but unfortunately none of FEA3. Here is an Urlaubschein in use for both units. To be on the save side I checked the mention of the Karl Braun license in 1911 (No 155) in Flugsport of 1911. It seems as if there were two different Karl Braun who were only three years apart in age and in getting the license. They are not the same. Here the original No 155: No. 155. Braun, Leutnant im Drag.-Regt No. 9, Charlottenburg, geb. am 17. März 1885 zu Metz, für Eindecker (Rumpler-Taube) und Zweidecker (Farman, Albatros), Truppenübungsplatz Döberitz am 25. Januar 1912. It seems, though, they mixed up the birthplace with the garrison? And here is the number 479: No. 739 Braun, Karl, Ulm a. D., geb. am 21. Dezember 1888 zu Tettnang, für Zweidecker (A.E.G.), Flugplatz Nieder-Neuendorf, am 28. April 1914. Just found out that the military established a subsidiary of its flying school facility in Döberitz in Metz in 1911 as stated on p 922 of Flugsport 1911. This chimes in nicely with DR 9 in Metz. "Blicken wir auf Deutschland, das in Döberitz eine Militär-Flugschule errichtet hat, in die 50 Offiziere kommandiert werden. Eine Station ist in Metz installiert worden, zwei weitere werden in Thionville und Saarburg projektiert, und ein Spezialkredit von 9 Millionen Mark ist im Budget vorgesehen. Die in Deutschland benutzten Apparattypen sind diejenigen von Euler, Rumpier, Grade, Etrich, Albatros, Dorner, Farman und Wright." Braun was the commander of this branch in metz in 1911 as stated in Flugsport 1911 p 386: "Leutnant Braun, Kommandant der Militär-Fliegerschule zu Metz, mußte seine Nennung zurückziehen, da er an der Uebung teilnehmen muß, die am 15. Mai gelegentlich der Anwesenheit des Kaisers in Metz stattfindet: ferner ist es fraglich, ob die Herren Oberleutnant Keller, Lt. Carganico und Lt. Schmickäly nicht behindert sind, an der Konkurrenz teilzunehmen." Allerdings brach Braun das Fahrgestell seines Flugzeuges und konnte bei der kaiser-Übung daher nicht teilnehmen. "Für die gleichzeitig stattfindende Kaiserübung bei Chateausalins starteten Oberlt.Keller (Rumpler-Taube) und Reinhardt (Albatros-Argus). Leutnant Braun brach das Fahrgestell. 5 : 20 : 0 erfolgt die Abfahrt der Viktoria Louise" zur Aufklärungsübung." Dafür gelang ihm ein Flug, der auch in Frankreich Beachtung fand: "Trotzdem aber hat das Erscheinen einer deutschen Flugmaschine an der französischen Grenze hier ein unglaubliches Zähneklappern hervorgerufen. Es handelte sich um den von dem deutschen Offiziersflieger Braun gesteuerten Eindecker welcher, von Metz kommend, über Pont-ä-Mousson dahinflog und sich die Mosel entlang nach Metz zurückbegab. Man zeterte über das teutonische Bravourstück das man als eine Herausforderung bezeichnete. Automobilisten verfolgten die Flugmaschine, die, wie man geheimnisvoll meldete, auf dem Exerzierplatze von Frescaty bei Metz landete." Flugsport 1912. ACHTUNG: Auf S. 578 der Flugsport von 1912 gibt es ein Foto von Lt. Braun in Dragoneruniform im Rumpler-Flugzeug! Hier noch ein Bericht von der selben Seite: Leutnant Braun von der Fliegerstation Metz auf Albatros Doppeldecker mit 70 PS Mercedes-Motor, wurden als Aufklärer verwendet. Die Resultate, welche die Flieger erzielten, waren glänzend. Sie überbrachten die Meldungen zwei Stunden früher als die Kavallerie. Von der Oberleitung wurde die Genauigkeit, mit welcher die Truppenstellungen gemeldet wurden, besonders hervorgehoben. Die Offiziere überflogen die feindliche Stellung in einer Höhe von 800 — 1000) m. Wie neuerdings verlautet, hat Lt. Braun um Zurückstellung in Front auf 2 Jahre gebeten. Lt. Braun ist einer der tüchtigsten Flieger-Offiziere der Metzer Station." Do you know this? It includes the year of his death. https://de.frwiki.wiki/wiki/Karl_Braun_(aviateur) GreyC Edited February 24, 2022 by GreyC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutschritter Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) Thank you, great information ... yes, there were two Karl Braun, although our Karl Braun was born Carl, but was later written as Karl . Is there any way you can show the picture of Lt. Braun in Flugsport 1912 in Dragoneruniform? Yes, he died 29 April 1945 in Prien am Chiemsee at his Haus Bucheneck (Gartendenkmal in Oberbayern), his father-in-law was the very rich Dr. phil. John Eugen Louis von Haniel, the house was a wedding gift. I also have the birthplace Metz, his father was Sanitätsrat Dr. med. Carl Braun (b. 1847; d. ?), do you think that is wrong? Edited February 24, 2022 by Deutschritter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutschritter Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 3 hours ago, GreyC said: Wie neuerdings verlautet, hat Lt. Braun um Zurückstellung in Front auf 2 Jahre gebeten. Lt. Braun ist einer der tüchtigsten Flieger-Offiziere der Metzer Station." Bedeutet dies, daß er um Zurückstellung von den Dragonern bat, um weiterhin die Militär-Fliegerschule zu Metz kommandieren zu können? Danke!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Hi, the photo of him in Flugsport is the same as here: https://de.frwiki.wiki/wiki/Karl_Braun_(aviateur) I am not entirely sure what the Rückstellung refers to. It is interesting though, that there is no mention of him in the issues of Flugsport 1913 or 1914. Maybe he was working as a civilian or maybe in the staff of the Fliegerinspektion? In the Rangliste of 1913 at least he is listed as abkommandiert to the Inspektion. GreyC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutschritter Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 Thanks for that. But they got the year wrong, not 1913, surely 1912, seeing that it was in Flugsport 1912. That is a very good point, not once mentioned in Flugsport 1913 or 1914 ... I would really love to know, what exactly he did in that period, but we will probably never know. Thanks for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Deutschritter said: But they got the year wrong, not 1913, surely 1912, I doubt that. The Rangliste, issued every year and based on official data from the military was a quasi official bible of the ranks in the Prussian army. They very rarly got something wrong. However, they mirrored the status quo of May of the previous year, in this case May 1912. There is a competing publication with a deadline of 8th Oct. 1912 for 1913 and he is still listed in it. Taking into consideration that he is even still listed with DR 9 in the Rangliste of 1914, here with deadline of May 1914 and in the Ehrenrangliste of 1924 also with DR 9 (based on entries as of 1914 RL), I presume he was either active at the Inspektion of the Flieger around 1913 or he was back with DR 9 before the war, as he is not listed as "Kommandiert" in the 1914 Rangliste. At the beginning of the war he might then be kommandiert to a Flieger unit. Best, GreyC Edited February 25, 2022 by GreyC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutschritter Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) Reading the Ranglisten that sounds right, but I can only with difficulty imagine that such an experienced pilot what be commanded to normal Kompaniedienst. Seeing he was Kommandant of the Fliegerschule Darmstadt-Griesheim and Gotha 1914/15, at the same time being Kommandeur der Flieger-Ersatz-Abteilung 3 (FEA 3), it seems he stayed sharp. I am still trying to find out, what exactly he did, after being wounded by Verdun, with the Kampfgeschwader der Obersten Heeresleitung 2 (Kagohl 2), and if he really commanded the Flieger-Abteilung 220 (Artillerie), as one source suggests. BTW: The picture (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Braun_(aviateur)) is from 1912, not 1913, as the french site suggests, because the same picture is used in Flugsport 1912. Edited February 25, 2022 by Deutschritter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Hi, do you now this site: http://www.sammlung-merschroth.de/html/flieger_in_griesheim.html Best, GreyC 9 minutes ago, Deutschritter said: is from 1912, not 1913, Quite right. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutschritter Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) No, but thanks, I love this topic. Wouldn't it be great to find out, that Ernst Udet and others were trained by Braun at Griesheim 1914/15? I just found this: "Am 12. April 1912 wird als erste Fliegerstation im Westen die Station in Metz auf dem Exerzierplatz von Frescaty eröffnet. Dort steht schon seit 1909 die Luftschiffhalle mit dem ersten Militärluftschiff Deutschlands, dem Zeppelin Z I. Erster Führer der Fliegerstation und der Flugschule Metz ist Leutnant Karl Braun, ein gebürtiger Metzer, welcher am 25. Januar 1912 sein Flugzeugführerzeugnis auf Rumpler-Taube und Albatros Typ Farman Zweidecker gemacht hatte. Er bleibt bis zum 30. September 1912 der Leiter der Schule." https://www.volksfreund.de/region/mosel-wittlich-hunsrueck/bruchlandung-einer-militaermaschine-bei-binsfeld_aid-5491110 Edited February 25, 2022 by Deutschritter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 23 minutes ago, Deutschritter said: am 25. Januar 1912 sein Flugzeugführerzeugnis auf Rumpler-Taube und Albatros Typ Farman Zweidecker Yes, thats from the publicised pilot exam and Flugsport mentioned him to be the Kdr. of Metz Where did you get the info from that he was Kommandeur of FEA3? Have you tried the Bundesarchiv? There must be a file there, consideruing he was a member of the NSDAP and a high profile NSFK guy. Best, GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutschritter Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) I do not remember, I read hundreds of pages researching Braun, I read it somewhere. It also makes sense, that he was at least WITH FEA3. He was, according to Frontflieger.de, Leiter der Fliegerschule Darmstadt-Griesheim bzw. Gotha ... and FEA3 was first in Griesheim and then in Gotha. Flugsport 1915 (Heft 17) has him in August 1915 as Rittmeister of FEA3. Another question: In the picture as Lehrer in Gotha (above) he is still wearing his Dragoner-Schirmmütze (kornblumenblaues Grundtuch für den Deckel mit weißem Bund als Deckelvorstoß und weißer Paspelierung der Besatzstreifen). Did the Fliegertruppe have their own uniforms or were they allowed to wear there old regimental clothing? Maybe he was always kommandiert, not versetzt? Edited February 25, 2022 by Deutschritter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Deutschritter said: Did the Fliegertruppe have their own uniforms or were they allowed to wear there old regimental clothing? Maybe he was always kommandiert, not versetzt? They had their own uniforms, however the officers were very often only kommandiert, not versetzt. This was also true for Braun as I wrote repeatedly. That´s why they wore the uniforms of their respective "home" units. GreyC Find attached a Flieger VzFw of Fliegerersatzabt. 1. The FEA 3 had a similar uniform. Edited February 26, 2022 by GreyC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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