Unknown Man and unidentified star

[medalnet]

Can anybody identify the golden star on this man's chest, better yet, identify the man himself?

[paul wood]

Obviously a senior russian officer, he has the officer's insignia for 25 years . I think the gold star is St George, would be a Crimea period award I suspect.  Could not be many 2nd class awards (second class had stars).

P

 

[medalnet]

4 hours ago, paul wood said:

Obviously a senior russian officer, he has the officer's insignia for 25 years . I think the gold star is St George, would be a Crimea period award I suspect.  Could not be many 2nd class awards (second class had stars).

P

 

But would he not have worn the 2nd class cross on his neck? He has a 3rd class on his medal bar though.

What are those medals he is wearing anyway? He does have the Prussian Pour le Mérite. (See attached) the portrait and the order came with a princely inventory tag named "Joseph Anrep XXX" the 3rd word is not readable.

[JohanH]

1 hour ago, medalnet said:

But would he not have worn the 2nd class cross on his neck? He has a 3rd class on his medal bar though.

What are those medals he is wearing anyway? He does have the Prussian Pour le Mérite. (See attached) the portrait and the order came with a princely inventory tag named "Joseph Anrep XXX" the 3rd word is not readable.

Could it be Joseph Carl Anrep-Elmpt?

[medalnet]

He is not listed within the standard literature. The man looks different to Joseph Carl Anrep-Elmpt.

Edited October 17, 2022 by medalnet

[paul wood]

The second class would be worn as a breast badge when on riband bar.

P

Or it may be his oreviously awarded Third

[medalnet]

4 hours ago, paul wood said:

The second class would be worn as a breast badge when on riband bar.

P

Or it may be his previously awarded Third

So if he was awarded the 2nd class after a already awarded 3rd class (as seen here on the medal bar) he would only wear the star?

[Elmar Lang]

The complete family name is Anrep Elmpt

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

It is not Anrep Elmpt! I am sure I have seen this face before but I do not have too much time to dig through dozens of portraits of Russian generals. The portrait has been made with errors in the details of the uniform and medals. What I can say now is:

• the uniform is from the times of the reign of Nicholas I
• the man is a general
• he used to serve in the guards, so he wears Litzen on the collar instead of standard general's embroidery
• the picture was made in 1832 at the earliest.

The orders at the edge of his jacket are as follows:

• Order of St. Stanislas 1st Class
• Order of St. Vladimir 2nd Class
• Prussian Pour le merite
• Polish honorary Decoration 2nd Class - that was a slightly altered badge of the Polish Virtuti Militari, awarded by Nicholas I to all troops which took part in the suppression of the rising of 1830-31.

The row of medals on his chest is difficult to recognize as they are only sketched, but they are probably as follows:

• Order of St. George 4th Class
• Patriotic War 1812 in silver
• Capture of Paris 1814 ?
• Capture of Warsaw 1831 ?
• Patriotic War 1812 in bronze
• French Legion of Honour.

The star on the right is of the Order of St. Anne 1st Class with crown, On the left is that of St. Vladimir 2nd Class.

 

The gold star has been drawn most probably with an error as well. At that time not too many orders had an accompanying gold star. One that comes to my mind is that of the (already Russian) Order of the White Eagle. Technically, it should be worn above that of St. Vladimir, but as a former Polish order it was sometimes placed below, as “inferior” to genuinely Russian orders.

 

I have made a list of the generals awarded with both the Polish honorary Decoration 2nd Class AND Pour le merite – unfortunately none of them matches the face from the picture. There are eight other generals with no pictures and it is likely that the man is just one of them.

 

[medalnet]

Could you share those names? Also, to me, and as the St. Anne Star with Crowns is present, the sequence looks to me more like:

 

• Order of St. Stanislas 1st Class
• Order of St. Vladimir 2nd Class
• Prussian Pour le merite
• Order of St. Vladimir 3rd Class with Crown

 

The golden Star would then be the St. Stanislaus star. Wrong overall color, but there is that green!

Edited October 25, 2022 by medalnet

[medalnet]

Does a St. Vladimir with crown even exists?

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

I do not think it can be the star of St. Stanislas. Leaving aside the color, when a badge worn normally on the sash moved to the neck, it was no longer accompanied by a star. That applied not only to St. Stanislas and other Russian orders, but was a general principle, accepted in other countries as well, to mention the Prussian Red Eagle as an example.

 

Besides that of the Order of the White Eagle, the only other gold star I can think of was that of the Saxon Order of St. Henry. But for historical reasons it was conferred sparingly upon Russians and I am not sure any Russian general (well, except Barcalay de Tolly) ever received the 1st or 2nd Class (only these two classes came with a star).

 

I have never heard of St. Vladimir with crown. Besides, in the times of Nicholas I only the highest class of an order reveived could be worn. That the cross with crown is of the Polish honorary Decoration is something I am absoluely positive about. With its black enamel I do not think it could be anything else.

 

Here is the list of the eight generals that can potentially be on the picture. Enjoy!

 

• Sergey Baturin (Батурин, Сергей Герасимович)
• Mikhail Cheodaev (Чеодаев, Михаил Иванович)
• Alexandr Gerve (Жерве, Александр Карлович)
• Pavel Pritvitz (Притвиц, Павел Карлович)
• Karl Rennenkampf (Ренненкампф, Карл Павлович - this can be crossed out. I have found a picture of his and he looks entirely different)
• Grigory Sergeev (Сергеев, Григорий Алексеевич)
• Afanasy Tolmachov (Толмачёв, Афанасий Емельянович)
• Alexandr Zaborinsky (Заборинский, Александр Никифорович)

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Lukasz Gaszewski

[medalnet]

On 21/10/2022 at 01:58, Lukasz Gaszewski said:

It is not Anrep Elmpt! I am sure I have seen this face before but I do not have too much time to dig through dozens of portraits of Russian generals. The portrait has been made with errors in the details of the uniform and medals. What I can say now is:

• the uniform is from the times of the reign of Nicholas I
• the man is a general
• he used to serve in the guards, so he wears Litzen on the collar instead of standard general's embroidery
• the picture was made in 1832 at the earliest.

The orders at the edge of his jacket are as follows:

• Order of St. Stanislas 1st Class
• Order of St. Vladimir 2nd Class
• Prussian Pour le merite
• Polish honorary Decoration 2nd Class - that was a slightly altered badge of the Polish Virtuti Militari, awarded by Nicholas I to all troops which took part in the suppression of the rising of 1830-31.

The row of medals on his chest is difficult to recognize as they are only sketched, but they are probably as follows:

• Order of St. George 4th Class
• Patriotic War 1812 in silver
• Capture of Paris 1814 ?
• Capture of Warsaw 1831 ?
• Patriotic War 1812 in bronze
• French Legion of Honour.

The star on the right is of the Order of St. Anne 1st Class with crown, On the left is that of St. Vladimir 2nd Class.

 

The gold star has been drawn most probably with an error as well. At that time not too many orders had an accompanying gold star. One that comes to my mind is that of the (already Russian) Order of the White Eagle. Technically, it should be worn above that of St. Vladimir, but as a former Polish order it was sometimes placed below, as “inferior” to genuinely Russian orders.

 

I have made a list of the generals awarded with both the Polish honorary Decoration 2nd Class AND Pour le merite – unfortunately none of them matches the face from the picture. There are eight other generals with no pictures and it is likely that the man is just one of them.

 

Would you mind sharing the names of the other generals who's faces don't match? I tend to think now that the PlM was not awarded during the Napoleonic wars but later.