Gen. Lt. Loeb: Jewish PlM recipient

[Les]

I found this browsing through another Forum.

Loeb commanded the 14th Reserve Division and was awarded the PlM on 17.VI.1918. A recent write up on Loeb mentions he was Jewish. He died in 1925, so what would have happened to him if he was stayed in Germany after Hitler came to power is a moot point.

Les

Edited May 9, 2006 by Les

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't know that he WAS Jewish. The spelling L?b seem to have been scattered in the Baden region as a dialect spelling.

Robert L?b was born in 1853 and won an Iron Cross 2nd Class as a teenager in the Franco Prussian War. He had a long career as a cavalry officer, finally being brevetted General der Kavallerie on 1 October 1918. It seems an unlikely biography for a convert, in aristocratic Imperial Germany.

[Les]

I don't know that he WAS Jewish. The spelling L?b seem to have been scattered in the Baden region as a dialect spelling.

Robert L?b was born in 1853 and won an Iron Cross 2nd Class as a teenager in the Franco Prussian War. He had a long career as a cavalry officer, finally being brevetted General der Kavallerie on 1 October 1918. It seems an unlikely biography for a convert, in aristocratic Imperial Germany.

Rick,

Germanic last names can sometimes be deceptive and not truly a refection of someone's "background."

I don't know for certain one way or the other what he was.

Glenn over on the Axis History forum mentions:

January 1989 edition of the Zeitschrift f?r Heereskunde titled General der Kavallerie Robert Loeb - Die Geschichte eines j?dischen Generals.

Normally an "e" following an "o" would be umlauted in German, however, the article seems to be using umlauts while spelling L-o-e-b ......"ohne umlaut." Anyone have that issue of Z.f.H. available or could look it up?

Les

Edited May 9, 2006 by Les

[Luftmensch]

It seems an unlikely biography for a convert, in aristocratic Imperial Germany.

Edited May 9, 2006 by Luftmensch

[Guest Rick Research]

His name is spelled "L?b" in pre 1900 Rank Lists and the 1908/09 Orders Almanac but "Loeb" in the Honor Rank List etc.

This seems to have been a not uncommon name in a crescent from Hesse down through Baden into Bavaria.

I haven't been able to turn up anything on him.

[Stogieman]

I have always had a problem when these sorts of "issues" arise.... while the eventuality of post 1925 is a horrific period in history I have never understood the (IMO) morbid fascination with identifying brave officers and enlisted men from Germany's earlier history simply by virtue of their religious affiliations...... For me, the religion of these men is irrelevent, as is their social status, etc.

I guess I would have made a poor Teutonic Aristocrat. Ma famille est FRAINCH anyway.......

[Claudio]

Hi everybody,

I know for sure that a well-known family Loeb (with this spelling not ?) in Bern who owns a store chain is Jewish.

I wouldn't be surprised that also in Germany there many Jewish families with that surname (like also Weiss or Weisz, etc.).

Ciao,

Claudio

[Luftmensch]

Well...leaving Switzerland for now, what I find interesting about the German Army then was how much of a vehicle for social advancement it was. The lowliest leutnant had entree at court, whereas more senior civil servants or Kaufmaenner did not. So during the Kaiserzeit, it was a vehicle of assimilation for underclasses of all types--once you got a toehold in the Offizierkorps--those few cavalry and guards regiments that almost required an act of cabinet to join (and in one case did!) excepted.

Rgds

Edited May 10, 2006 by Luftmensch

[Glenn J]

Les,

I have the January 1989 ZfH in front of me now. The article is titled as you describe in your earlier post.

It states that General Loeb was born in Kaldenhof (Kreis Hamm) on the 23rd of January 1853 and that he belonged to an old Jewish family.

I get the impression from the article that the General may well have practiced his religion although it is not explicitly stated. What it does say is that when General Loeb was initially appointed as the commander of the 8th Cavalry Brigade at Halle, the appointment was not met with universal approval by the officers of K?rassier-Regiment Nr. 7 and Husaren-Regiment Nr. 12. However it appears that the General soon won the respect of his subordinates.

Regards

Glenn

[Luftmensch]

Glen, do you have the date of the appointment?

Edited May 10, 2006 by Luftmensch

[Luftmensch]

Claudio, I remember watching a James Bond movie in Basel...it did my head in!

There was a line of subtitles in English

There was a line of subtitles in French

There was a line of subtitles in Italian

I think I saw a line of subtitles in Romany

but by that point I was feeling dizzy. All I couldn't see was the picture.

You Swiss must be linguists from the cradle!

Rgds

[Les]

Glen,

Thanks!

Anti-semitism certainly existed in Imperial Germany (Germany at that times didn't have a monopoly on it by any means....Russia was arguably even worse). Despite the obvious fact that talented individuals would be affected by their social or other backgrounds, it was sometimes possible for highly talented and gifted individuals who were not part of the cultural mainstream to gain important positions in the Empire.

For example, Bleichroeder (an enormously wealthy Jewish banker) helped bankroll Wilhelm (II's) dreams of building Germany's industrial and military might by direct loans to the Imperial government. Without Bleichroeder, Bismarck and later Willy II might have had a far less spectacular period of growth and development in industry, growth of the state railway system, and both army and naval expansion. Despite Willy's sometimes "insensitive" remarks about "Jews" or rather those who practiced Judaism (within Germany), the Kaiser and Bleichroeder maintained both a cordial and business relationship all through the period of Willy's time on the throne.

If you want an example of something that raises hackles and is not part of the social norm, is the matter of Phillip v. Eulenberg, a close friend and personal confidant of the Kaiser who was "outed" and exposed in the "infamous" Hardin newspaper scandal and trial. Eulenberg's private life and close friendship with the Kaiser resulted in all of it becoming public, and Eulenberg being forced to resign his commission from the Garde du Korps (and army) and retire to private life.

Whatever Loeb was, or wasn't, I suspect he was stereotyped by some on the basis of his social origins. Obviously, if his social connections were "so-so" he got to be a general on the basis of talent, and if he was Jewish, and considering the affect that could have on a career (and not only in Germany) he had to be very good at what he did. His being awarded a PlM is an indication of that.

There's an old line about people doing things (in public and private), but not scaring the horses. Loeb may have practised beliefs that were not part of the cultural mainstream, but if he did, like Bleichroeder, Eulenburg, and others who were not part of the mainstream, what he did was probably kept his beliefs and what he did, quiet and private. Out of sight, out of mind perhaps?

Reagrdless of whether Loeb practised specific religious beliefs....I don't care. If he came from a Jewish background and managed to rise to field rank against the odds, then the guy had to have talent, and that's what ultimately matters.

The comment that when he was appointed to command of the brigade and there wasn't "universal approval" and that he "soon won the respect of his subordinates" says quite a bit ...about him.

Les

[Luftmensch]

There's an old line about people doing things (in public and private), but not scaring the horses.

Most interesting, Les. I vote we replace your PLM avatar with a mortar board! I would be very interested in knowing if the appointment to command the Brigade was before the war, during, or at the tail end to know the strength of such prejudices even while monarchies were tottering all around. It's enough to make you clip the crown from your Flugzeugfuehrerabzeichen!

[Glenn J]

General Loeb became commander of the 8th Cavalry Brigade on the 2nd of May 1908 whilst still an Oberst. He held the command for nearly four years until retiring on the 20th of February 1912 with the brevet rank of Generalleutnant. He had been promoted to Generalmajor on the 22nd of March 1910.

Regards

Glenn

[Luftmensch]

Thanks, Glenn. So pre-war old prejudices were still pretty strong, though crumbling at the edges...

Edited May 10, 2006 by Luftmensch

[Guest Rick Research]

(I have edited out derailed off-topic remarks in this thread.)

I wonder if the future General's career was helped along by a well made marriage? Very often such things did indeed matter.

He would have had to convert before entering the 19th century Prussian army officer corps. I only have the Imperial NAVY's requirements to enter on an officer's career as a cadet (including such oddities as that eyeglasses could NOT be worn, leaving one wondering if vision problems later were grounds for retirement) and front and center first up was "birth certificate and copy of the baptismal register." Applications also required in the first line "religion and when confirmed."

This was probably considered "subtle."

The Tsarist Army, as another example, required all officers to belong to the Orthodox religion-- thereby permanently alienating the entire populations of all the Empire's non-Russian frontier minorities-- and which is also how the late "English" actor Peter Ustinov's grandfather ended up discharged when he converted to Protestantism... and led to both of his sons serving as "von Ustinows" in the W?rttemberg air corps during WW1.

IF L?b/Loeb was indeed born Jewish, his choice of the cavalry as a branch for a regular army career still amazes me. Mere money might have bought the toleration of a RESERVE commission, but even that seems unlikely for that arm.

Remember that right up to the World War, even more restrictive and parochial than the general requirements of each national army, every single regiment was its own unique body, each with a closed "culture"-- whether entirely aristocratic, a Catholic enclave in Prussia's expanded borders, or "elite" in any sense of the word, as self-perceived: the 11th Field Artillery Regiment being one such "monied" unit without any noble pretensions. One had to "fit in" and "unit shopping" was absolutely essential. One line unit might not care how Papa made his money, while another sneered at "tradesmen's sons."

Cavalry regiments were as snooty, if one can use such a flippant term, as the Berlin regiments of the Guard. For them to have accepted and retained ANYONE who would have led to them being "looked down upon" by their peers in the larger army would have been quite extraordinary, from Day One of acceptance as an officer cadet. Applicants could be and were blackballed by those they would have to serve with. "Not one of us" was all it took to kill a career at the outset.

This is such an extraordinarily atypical case that it really deserves full and accurate genealogical study:

Who were his parents?

Who was his wife?

There were a number of L?b/Loebs in the Prussian army-- were any of them his sons?

And can anyone come up with any other documented case in the pre-1914 Prussian army? Money and talent were required, but were always subordinate to the inescapable fate of the accident of birth.

[Luftmensch]

Interesting, Rick. I can dig out footnotes for the following, if you like, it differs marginally from your excellent summary...

1. There were several hundred Prussian officers who were practicing Jews who served in the Franco-Prussian War. Many were decorated.

2. After the war, in one of the periodic reactions, the sons of these Jewish officers were officially denied commissions on the grounds of "weakness of character."

3. As a consequence, by 1910 there were no more officers who were practicing Jews in the Prussian army.

4. Like Loeb there continued to be Christian officers of Jewish parentage. These had performed so well as officer candidates that they had been taken aside and told to get baptised, as baptism "washes away all sins."

5. Rick refers to wives. There were plenty of Jewish wives in Prussian regiments. Poor Junkers found the practice of inter-faith marriage expedient and declared Jewish women "suitable" wives--to the delight of cartoonists and satirists. I have no information on highly placed Christian women conferring privileges on a Jewish officer. I do have instances of a Guards regiment preventing an officer's Jewish wife from attending regimental functions.

6. The most tolerant army was reportedly the Bavarian--most regiments having a token Jewish officer.

7. The Russian army had ONE Jewish officer--the Zionist hero Trumpeldor, who was so reckless in his bravery against the Japanese that he was presented to the Czarina (minus an arm) and given a commission by ROYAL DECREE. He later served in the Zionist Mule Corps with the British at Gallipoli.

I heartily agree that Loeb's service as a privileged cavalry officer with his parentage is H I G H L Y irregular and suggests some very unusual circumstances...

Rgds

Edited May 11, 2006 by Luftmensch

[Pete A]

Yet another interesting and informative thread.

But I've never heard of this thing that Russian officers were required to be orthodoxs. Can you shed some light on this, Rick? Or would this be more suitable topic for the Imperial Russian forum?

Thanks,

Pete

[Les]

One point to remember in much of the "intolerance" towards specific creeds other than state supported faiths, is that the German states in general didn't have a great deal of tolerance for some of the smaller and "heretical" Protestatnt creeds such as Calvinism, Baptists, Mormons, and assorted "others" who didn't share some of the basic state oriented ideas held by Catholicism and Lutheranism.

Arguably, you could get away with being an agnostic or aetheist provided you were a staunch supporter of the state, monarch, and established status quo. And you didn't scare the horses.....

If Berlin was looking for papers to show a nominal affiliation with one faith or another, "conversion" and "baptism" might be outward signs that a non-Christian (or non-believer in anything) might not take seriously and go along with because it meant better chances of upward mobility. In the horse related vein of comments, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can ask a man to convert, but you can't make him believe....

What did Loeb do? We don't know. Details would be good to have.

We know Loeb was born in 1850, and that he was old enough to have been part of the Franco-Prussian War.

Did Loeb actually obtain his commission through a cavalry unit, or like some, start off in an infantry unit, and then transfer to a cavalry unit? There were a couple of routes to a commission in the various state armies, and before speculating further on what Loeb did, some additional details would be good.

Les