Unknown Pour le Merite

[Daniel Murphy]

The piece was purchased at a New York auction house and was sold as a post WW1 PLM. It is posted seeking information with the authorization of the owner Frank O. It is silver gilt and unmarked, weighs 22 grams and measures 53mm across when measured diagonally. There was no provenance on the item when it sold. There was no loop and only a fragment ribbon of WW1 period weave.Please post your constructive comments on this piece. Obverse.

Dan Murphy

Edited July 4, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Reverse.

[Daniel Murphy]

Slightly angled shot.

Edited July 4, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Stogieman]

Hopefully Andreas will weigh in here... the design of the eagles is not consistent with any known original issue pieces. This piece does look very well made when compared to the usual fakes/copies we see. I don't like the heads and the tails of the eagles.... But this is not my area of expertise.

[medalnet]

It is not made by one of the three official suppliers to the Prussian orders chancellery.

[Daniel Murphy]

Andreas,

I know it is not an issue piece. There is NO WAY this is a Wagner, Friedlander or Godet. Do you have an idea on the possible period of manufacture from the way it is made. Could it be post WW1 from the 20's-30's Or is it just a fairly good post WW2 fake? I know that some feel that if a piece is not issue from pre 1919, it is just not real. However things are not always black and white, there are shades of gray. I do not own the piece and I am not defending it, the owner would just like to know as much as possible as to the age of the piece. You have probably seen more orders in the last year than I will see in my lifetime and are in an excellent position to give an opinion of it's age based on the way it is made. If you have seen a bunch of these pop up in the last year or so and were never seen before, that pretty much says it is a fake. If it is actually a modern fake then we need to out it, so that collectors will be aware of it. Thanks,

Dan Murphy

Edited July 6, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[medalnet]

Dan,

I am sorry, but I do not know.

Besides, I really only have interest in those three official manufacturers: Wagner, Friedl?nder & Godet.

Sorry

Andreas

[Stogieman]

The sad thing here is PLM's are like diecast cars in the UK...

you have only two (2) types....

A) Real (authentic issue pieces)

B) Everything else (no matter what the story, era, wish, hope or dream)

PS: With diecast, the grades are:

A) MINT

B) Everything else

[Biro]

you have only two (2) types....

A) Real (authentic issue pieces)

B) Everything else (no matter what the story, era, wish, hope or dream)

100% agreed.

'Everything else' makes for lively discussion, but you just do not part with any serious money for anything other than issue and textbook.

This PLM falls smack bang into the 'Everything else' catagory IMO...

No thanks.

Marshall

[Christophe]

The sad thing here is PLM's are like diecast cars in the UK...

you have only two (2) types....

A) Real (authentic issue pieces)

B) Everything else (no matter what the story, era, wish, hope or dream)

PS: With diecast, the grades are:

A) MINT

B) Everything else

Rick,

I agree, that's good definitions.

Ch.

[Les]

"those three official manufacturers: Wagner, Friedl?nder & Godet."

Friedl?nder is often cited as a "manufacturer" of PlMs during the WWI era, although a close comparison of pieces with the "FR" Ritzmarke to those made by Wagner, raise questions whether Friedl?nder was an actual maker of the awards, or simply bought medals from Wagner and resold them with their own firm's marking on the pieces.

The presence of the same exact die flaws on "Friedl?nder" marked pieces, are seen on Wagner made PlMs, the only way this could have happened is if -one- firm made the same identical dies used to make the products sold by both firms.

In short, there is a considerable amount of evidence indicating there are only -two- official manufacturers of the PlM during WWI, not three. There is however, evidence that Friedl?nder was only a -retailer- of the medal, and -not- a manufacturer of the PlM.

The difference is not simple semantics. The difference between a manufacturer and retailer is quite different and an important distinction.

Les

[Les]

The sad thing here is PLM's are like diecast cars in the UK...

you have only two (2) types....

A) Real (authentic issue pieces)

B) Everything else (no matter what the story, era, wish, hope or dream)

PS: With diecast, the grades are:

A) MINT

B) Everything else

Many collectors like a certain degree of wear or chipping to the enamel, etc, on a PlM instead of one that's absolutely pristine. In fact, most PlM's do have some degree of wear or chipping, and the wear according to some gives a PlM "character" or a recognizable identity that allows the piece to be recognized even when shown with others.

Considering how "rare" and sought after -any- real WWI era PlM -made- by Wagner or Godet is, condition is often of secondary importance to someone wanting a documented piece, or even one with no attribution at all.

Les

[Stogieman]

Hi Les, I won't disagree with your statement, the evidence is compelling. However that doesn't change the two grades I offered up.

Do I think "wearer's copies" were made. yeah, probably.... but unless they are coming out of an attributable, documented, researched group it's all just story with no basis in reality, or fact.

Everyone who owns one of these pieces, whether they paid a song, or thousands, are heavily invested in the story (and the arguments thereof) and are not dealing with the "piece" itself.

This arena is normally played out on eBay where people with more money than brains routinely pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for items that are routinely debunked here as utter rubbish.....

The serious student, collector, investor (and yes, I will use that last word freely) does his homework and sticts to "textbook' pieces.

The INSTANT you have to start explaining, singing a song, or arguing a story......... the piece falls out of category (A) (REAL) and into category (B) (EVERYTHING ELSE)

[medalnet]

The difference is not simple semantics. The difference between a manufacturer and retailer is quite different and an important distinction.

I should have put the word manufacturer in "". Many orders shops used to source from the manufacturer, which there weren't many. Just take Zimmermann for example!