SA marine

[Bob Coleman]

Hello Bob,

Caught me in mid-edit! I know, I've seen, many years ago, 2 black SA daggers--factory types, not hand painted examples--and a gilted fitting dagger (no scabbard unfortunately) directly from vets. At the time the black daggers were thought to possibly be GI souvenirs made up of SA and SS parts, which we now know is unlikely. I think it's more likely that there were limited daggers made up, perhaps as a special order, for purchase or presentation by or to Marine SA officers or members. I think the majority of the organization would have worn standard brown/nickel daggers, though.

Erich-

Your thoughts parallel mine. Although not a large organization, one would think more examples would be found. My thoughts wre most likely this pattern was worn only by officers.

Bob

[Colorado]

I understand what you are saying about the black ones. But, the ones such as mine that are like a standard SA except all metal parts (minus blade) are gilt too and referred to as a Marine model by some. There is no documentation on that I know. I saw one posted on Germandaggers back in about 2002 like mine and both were Wingen and both were "No" marked. There was someone else that claimed to have another Wingen similarly marked. That makes three I know of to date.

The one that started this thread is not "No" so my guess it is not gilt in the same way as mine. Only a thoery given the location of the Gau in Germany, mine could have been a special order by Wingen for a "marine" contingent or other special group.

My point is that makers made these in batches (like Rohm's) and one would expect daggers by same makers and Gaus from the same period to have same characteristics. All others should be viewed with a measure of skepticism.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Colorado

[Robert Rytir]

Gentlemen interesting subject,heis my example which I have had in my collection for 25yrs and it came from a collector who got this piece from TJ about 8 yrs before I purchased it from him as a SA marine.

Cheers Rob

Edited August 4, 2006 by Robert Rytir

[Robert Rytir]

Front

[Robert Rytir]

Does any body know what these bring on the market today ??

Rob

[Erich]

I was offered one from Wittmann (which he felt was an NSKK refinished by an overzealous NSKK/Motor SA member--he didn't believe the black daggers were for the Marine SA) for $750.00 2 years ago. It was in similar condition--perhaps a half degree lesser condition.

Erich

Does any body know what these bring on the market today ??

Rob

[Colorado]

I have been offered well over $1K for my dagger.

[sdp]

My Eickhorn was around the $800.00 mark and I managed to pick up the G. Felix for about $400.00, (it has a broken tip though).

[sdp]

Interesting link, although not that much information:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3086

[Billy G]

Fellows,

Excellent topic, and dorry for coming to the party late. Here's my example, an salty, early SA by Konejung. I purchased it thinking it might be a Marine SA. The price was right so I figured I could always flip it again in the event it was just a collector's bad paint job.

I recently sent another dagger to Tom Wittmann for verification so I included this one since I wanted another opinion. Tom verified the black paint job was period and even smapped a few pictures of it for his upcoming tome on SA daggers. I was always happy with the piece as I felt it had some character but now I'm even more pleased with it.

[Erich]

Hello Billy,

Nice! Tom, though, and I had discussed these painted handled daggers and he, at least at the time, felt they were done by NSKK members. This was, perhaps, 6 years ago or so--I wonder if he's changed his opinion?

Erich

[Bob Coleman]

Hello Billy,

Nice! Tom, though, and I had discussed these painted handled daggers and he, at least at the time, felt they were done by NSKK members. This was, perhaps, 6 years ago or so--I wonder if he's changed his opinion?

Erich

Erich-

Mydagger has a painted handle(most of which is now worn off), has a blue/black anodized scabbard and is a factory refinished Roehm dagger. That makes it quite early and most likely not NSKK.

Bob

[sdp]

Wittmann has an interesting one for sale... priced at $795.00

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/20027.htm

[Mike K]

Hi,

I've been meaning to add to this thread for a while now. The only dagger remaining in my collection is one that was sold to me as an SA-Marine (obverse scan below). It came out of a big Melbourne collection that was split up in the late 80s. The handle is exceptionally dark brown (it appears to have been originally stained this way, not painted) and the scabbard has an old an very neatly done black overpaint (standard SA brown is underneath). Note that the eagle is fire-gilded. Traces of yellow on the fittings (the crossguards are a matching pair) - may only be laquer remains though. Fyi, it's a F. Herder (crossed keys) and "Nrh" gruppe marked. Make of ot what you will - no-one has been able to tell me what it is.

The main reason for contributing will be in the next two post.

Regards

Mike

[Mike K]

OK.

I have a series of pages from the old "World War II" magazine published in the early 1970s. The pages are acompliation of a translated extract from the "Organisationsbuch der NSDAP", translated by a Susanne Flatauer. Of interest are the accompanying colour plates. I can not find out if these are from the original Organisationsbuch or were drawn up for the article but I thought they may be of interest.

First up, NSKK....

[Mike K]

and secondly Naval SA.

I hope these may be of some use.

Don't shoot the messager - I'm a badge guy!

Regards

Mike

[Erich]

Thanks for posting the photos. I can tell the Marine NSKK illustration pictures the gold fitted daggers, but are the Marine SA wearing black daggers or dark brown? They look black in this illustration, but the Org Books show them as standard brown SA's, as does the von Eelking book, the Cord von Einem books, the Sturm cigarette album, etc. Those books not including illustrations but mentioning the MSA uniform do not indicate a dagger different than the standard. Also, I've owned numerous dagger catalogues, examined many others, as well as period RZM advertisements, magazine and newspaper ads, etc. and none mention anything other than the standard SA dagger.

[sdp]

Mike K... any chance of a close up picture of the eagle on your dagger?

[sdp]

Edited

Edited September 22, 2006 by sdp

[sdp]

Edited

Edited September 22, 2006 by sdp

[Mike K]

Hi,

Erich, the colours of the illustrations are fairly well reproduced (on my screen anyway!). In the hand, the Naval-SA daggers appear to be true black on the illustrations.

sdp, hopefully this old scan helps. For what it's worth, I have previously tried acetone (VERY carefully) to see if the gilt could be removed - it did not come off. Some of the really dark brown between the arms of the swas was easily removed with a blunt toothpick. I guess it was a waxy substance. Fire-gilt was underneath.

Regards

Mike

[sdp]

Thanks Mike, your eagle is definitely different to both of mine.

Do you think there's a chance that yours could have been replaced at some stage? (Just throwing ideas around). Best, Scott

Edited September 22, 2006 by sdp

[Mike K]

Hi Scott,

To me the eagle looks like a good fit into the handle - seems pretty firmly in place and the eagle is fairly flush with the wood. If it had been replaced, I would have expected something more in the way of damage at the edges of the recessed area.

I can't comment on the difference in eagles (I have no other reference) but I'd be surprised if there was only one type of eagle in use. Did Herder only use one type of eagle on their earlier SAs?

Regards

Mike

[sdp]

Hi Mike, I don't know the answer about Herder's. The eagle looks good to me too, the only reason I mentioned it as a suggestion is because when you look at the photo, the eagle's wing on the right, (or the eagle's left wing), looks like there's a bit of a gap with the wood, (grip) but the rest of it looks like it is original.

I wish we had more information on these daggers!

[sdp]

Photo of an NSKK Marine:

http://cgi.ebay.de/FOTO-NSKK-MARINE-DOLCH-...1QQcmdZViewItem