Leutnant Gebirgsj?ger 1st WW

[Robert Noss]

Hope I am not too boring with my questions.

This photo from today's fleamarket bears a question for me:

I think the officer at the right is a mountain-trooper of 1st WW.

Details:

My questions:

Why does he have NCO-Tresse on his collar and shoulderboards for a Leutnant. He's also waering an officer's buckle.

Is that a "T 1" on his boards and what does it mean ?

As always, thanks very much for Your time and infos.

Robert

[Stogieman]

Greetings Robert. I cannot answer your questions. But that is an interesting photograph!!

[Guest Rick Research]

I would say you've got a pair of brothers. Big Brother on the right is an officer, while Younger Brother is not (yet).

Both wear the M1916 Bavarian Abzeichenborte:

[attachmentid=47018]

enlisted ranks above and officers in bullion below. Often found only on the front edge of collars, or in a short "L" section-- but they are wearing it full length around the collar.

The Leutnant is from T elegraphen Bataillon 1, so he has the subdued late war "Garde" collar patches.

Very interesting to me-- he has chosen the expense of buying a single Bavarian style ribbon bar for his EK2... rather than just wearing it in his buttonhole! That's a nice one for my Eternal Project as a "fashion statement."

[dwmosher]

Another interesting fashion statement is the heightened collar of the younger brother sporting 1916 bavarian borte on his M-1907 waffenrock.

[Chip]

Very interesting to me-- he has chosen the expense of buying a single Bavarian style ribbon bar for his EK2... rather than just wearing it in his buttonhole!

What buttonhole!

Here are what a pair officer's boards from the same unit look like. The Bavarians used the Prussian style "T" until 1918 when they changed to this rather plain "T" design for the officer's insignia. These are the only examples that I have seen of this pattern and Robert's photo is the first I have seen of it being worn.

Chip

[Robert Noss]

That is already a lot of infos. Thanks a lot.

So I understand that the Tresse in 1st WW was NOT a sign of rank rather than a sign of landmanship ??

I didn't know that before, thought it has the same meaning as in WW 2.

The photo came together with two more shots.

Another younger brother.

And the last one:

This Leutnant seemed to have quite a few different jackets.

Kind regards

Robert

[Guest Rick Research]

If both regular army officers and not reservists*--

These are either Karl Mussbach (born 8.3.1895 and alive 1969 as WWI Oberleutnant aD/WW2 Hauptmann aD) and Friedrich Mussbach (born 1896, Reichsheer--at the Infantry School on 8/9.11.23 but NOT with the Nazis, final rank Oberst 1.1.42)

or Fritz Graf (born 1895) and Herbert Graf (ALSO born 1895), both char. Oberleutnant aD after WW1.

The Mussbachs seem more likely for older/younger, but the ribbons don't seem to match s well as they do for the Graf ?twins.

Wartime seniorities are a mess, so it is difficult to tell when they were each REALLY commisioned as opoosed to their rank dates-- all 4 were vorpatentiert as Abitur holders.

* There seem to have been VERY few wartime reserve officers commisioned in this unit. I do not know why.

[dwmosher]

Robert:

It may seem a little confusing, but the "sergent rank and above" tresse was used for imperial tunics and an additional state trim (Borte) was used on Bavarian tunics (officer and other ranks) starting in mid-1916. The rank tresse was in silver or gild tape on the pre-war and early M1907 tunics. Later, for field tunics, this tresse was changed to a muted gray tape and was often shortened into a "L" shaped piece on the leading edge and portions of the bottom edge of the collar (not all the way around the bottom of the collar). In your latest family picture (with the boy) I can't tell whether the bottom lace on the NCO is the Bavarian Borte or its NCO rank tresse. From the appearace of the size of the rank button on the collar, I would presume it is the Bavarian Borte and his rank is that of a gefreiter, which would not wear the rank tresse.

In regards to the officer, he was wearing the Bavarian M-1916 bluse in the first picture, the Bavarian M-1916 kleinerrock in the second picture and the M-1910 officer's waffenrock in the last picture.

Dave

[Guest Rick Research]

I thought this had come up before, but I couldn't find a thread with these, so here goes with some examples:

This Landsturm Gefreiter only has the 'borte on the front edge of his collar:

[attachmentid=47077]

Leutnant dR K. Theo Wittmann only has the officer's 'borte around the BOTTOM of his Liewka collar!!!

[attachmentid=47078]

I know this underage private in "Red 1919" has turned up before here-- his tunic collar apparently has full length 'borte from what shows, while his overcoat has it along the front edge:

[attachmentid=47079]

Here is a good example, showing the difference in width between the Abzeichenborte and Unteroffiziertresse:

Gefreiter Joseph H?ussler back home safe in Lindau on 2 February 1919:

[attachmentid=47080]

[Robert Noss]

I think I have got it now

That last photo is showing the difference very clear.

Well - why did the bavarians used the Borte ? And others not ?

I know we are a little proud tribe at the rim of the alps and always have been a bit different to the rest of the germanic tribes up north.

Kind regards

Robert

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup, that's just it-- "esprit de corps" as the French say.

I do not know if the Abzeichenborte was ever actually ISSUED en masse to units, or only to individuals getting new tunics replaced-- from the photographs I have had over many years, 50/50 ever wore it. Maybe each soldier was supposed to BUY his own? Even all of the officers do not show it.

[joerookery]

This Landsturm Gefreiter only has the 'borte on the front edge of his collar:

Please help me out here. This guy has his "Brigade number"???? and a steel helmet??? I thought these brigade number were OBE by 1915????? Help!

[Guest Rick Research]

No, Joe-- that's the Battalion number. Bob Vila with the binoculars there is NOT wearing the normal little Roman numerals for the army corps as in "I/20."

III/20 stayed home as Landsturm Infantry Replacement Btn. Ansbach

but

I/20 (to confuse things, also designated as the 4th Ldst Inf Btn M?nchen) was in the Champagne?Argonne sector and

II/20 (also designated 2nd Ldst Inf Btn W?rzburg) was in Rumania.

No clues as to which of the THREE units he was in, since nothing was written on it.

[joerookery]

Thanks Rick these numbers have me confounded.

No numbers--Little Corps numbers with big or small bn numbers came after large brigade numbers alone. Then this guy shows up with no corps numbers after 1915!!!

Here is a guy from Landsturm XIX 20 -- Ldst.-1st Btl. Rochlitz formed August 1915, with a spikeless helmet. Also he has his numbers on the overcoat. Size of overcoat proves one size fits all.

Is there a bottom to the learning?!?!?!~?!

[JensF.]

Very interesting picture of the bavarian Telegraphen-officer! And thanks to Rick for showing the difference between the "Uffz-Litze" and the bavarian-Litze. I wonder which type of bayonet this officer is wearing. Very short and the scabbard looks strange too.

[JensF.]

Of course you are absolutely NOT boring with your questions! Ask as much as possible, this is not the german

"Militaria-Fundforum".

Hope I am not too boring with my questions.

This photo from today's fleamarket bears a question for me:

I think the officer at the right is a mountain-trooper of 1st WW.

Details:

My questions:

Why does he have NCO-Tresse on his collar and shoulderboards for a Leutnant. He's also waering an officer's buckle.

Is that a "T 1" on his boards and what does it mean ?

As always, thanks very much for Your time and infos.

Robert

Edited July 27, 2006 by JensF.