The use of Gold Sovereigns,

[bigjarofwasps]

Lawrence wishes to fulfill his promises to unite the Arab tribes when he continues his work in the desert with British support of arms, money, and training:

Lawrence: Arabia is for the Arabs now. That's what I've told them anyway. That's what they think. That's why they're fighting.

Allenby: Oh surely.

Lawrence: They've only one suspicion. We let them drive the Turks out and then move in ourselves. I've told them that that's false, that we've no ambitions in Arabia. Have we?

Allenby: I'm not a politician, thank god. Have we any ambition in Arabia, Dryden?

Dryden: Difficult question sir.

Lawrence: I want to know sir, if I can tell them, in your name, that we've no ambitions in Arabia.

Allenby: Certainly.

Lawrence: Two thousand small arms, not enough. I need five.

Allenby: Right.

Lawrence: Money. It'll have to be sovereigns. They don't like paper.

Allenby: Right.

Lawrence: Instructors for the Lewis guns.

Allenby: Right.

Lawrence: More money.

Allenby: How much more?

Lawrence: Twenty-five thousand now. A lot more later.

Allenby: Dryden?

Dryden: It can be done, sir.

Lawrence: A couple of armored cars.

Allenby: Right.

Lawrence: Field artillery.

Allenby: Right. I know to give you every blessed thing I can, Major Lawrence, because I know you'll use it. Congratulations and thank you.

[bigjarofwasps]

In Cairo Lawrence intrigued to encourage the Arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire. Gertrude Bell was dispatched to India. The disaster at Kut put a decided damper on its ambitions. "I hate war; oh, and I'm so weary of it--of war, of life," as she sighed from Basra, in March 1916 during the frightful heat. That was the month that the British government began to pay Sharif Hussein ?125,000 gold sovereigns a month, a deal she helped set up.

[bigjarofwasps]

Old Soldiers never die by Pte Frank Richards DCM MM 2nd Battalion RWF

Trenches at Houplines p42

During the winter of 1914/15 whilst the battalion was stationed here, Richards tells the tale of a Cpl Pardoe, who is killed by a sniper. When is body is removed for burial, the men check it for items they maybe able to use themselves, Richards states he was after new puttees, however, they find a belt close to the skin, in the belt is contained about 60 English sovereigns and some French money, none of which was sent back to his next of kin. Richards himself doesn?t take any, happy with the puttees.

60 sovereigns that?s about 15 ounces I believe, that?s a lot of gold to be humping round the place, especially when you consider the mass route marches the battalion had conducted during the opening phases of the war, I?m sure you?ll agree!!!

Cpl Pardoe`s details on the CWGC website?.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=597129

[Mervyn Mitton]

When did the Sovereign first start to be used ? I suppose in some ways, it must be descended from the Roman gold denarius??

[bigjarofwasps]

When did the Sovereign first start to be used ? I suppose in some ways, it must be descended from the Roman gold denarius??

The gold sovereign came into existence in 1489 under King Henry VII. But I guess Harry must have got the idea from somewhere else, so the whole Roman thing is possible? Maybe from the middle east & that whole crusades business, how ironic that would be? :rolleyes:

[Mervyn Mitton]

I don't know why - but, I'd always thought they were much earlier than that. Would you have a picture of what they looked like - have they changed greatly over the years ? I've never had an interest in coins to collect - although I like the Kruger coins of the Boer Republic. Had a chap in the shop this morning - he said he has a big coin collection, but that dealers won't buy back and he can't sell any of them - he's turning to medals. He also, mentioned that he had an 1892 mint Boer Rep. 1d - that he had been offered ?600 for. Would it be that difficult to sell coins - and would it be worth that much ?

Before the change of Govt. here , anyone who had to go overseas would buy valuable stamps to take out in their wallet - even if you got only 50% of what you paid, at least you had money out of the Country. I suppose gold coins are the same - although harder to hide ???

[Tom Y]

The gold sovereign came into existence in 1489 under King Henry VII. But I guess Harry must have got the idea from somewhere else, so the whole Roman thing is possible? Maybe from the middle east & that whole crusades business, how ironic that would be?

From "Gold Coins of the World" by Robert Friedberg.

[The Monkey God]

I assume they loaded all the sovereigns onto camels and took them out into the desert for the tribesman. Which takes me back to other thread about bribing the taliban with gold. I assume that the modern camel would be a helicopter, but there seems to be a shortage of those if we`re to believe the news, which beggers the question, will they have to move the `gold` via roads, leaving it open to IEDs & or ambush. Glad I don`t have to come up with an answer to this problem......

[mariner]

I assume they loaded all the sovereigns onto camels and took them out into the desert for the tribesman. Which takes me back to other thread about bribing the taliban with gold. I assume that the modern camel would be a helicopter, but there seems to be a shortage of those if we`re to believe the news, which beggers the question, will they have to move the `gold` via roads, leaving it open to IEDs & or ambush. Glad I don`t have to come up with an answer to this problem......

The CIA didn`t seem to have any real issues moving large amounts of gold krugerrands round the place in the 1980s.......

[QSAMIKE]

Good Morning Everyone......

It;s been 10 years since anything has been added to this thread so I thought I would add some more......

I have just obtained a group of medals that consist of:

Commander of the Order of the British Empire, Queen's South Africa Medal, World War One War Medal and Interallied Victory Medal with Mentioned in Despatches.......   

I have been contacted by the seller with information that they have found some papers and two more pieces of ribbon but no medals that as per the description are a French Legion of Honour and Egyptian Order of the Nile.....   If my research, which has just begun, confirms them I will get some and add them to group (but only if confirmed).....

There may be a Lawrence of Arabia (T. E. Lawrence) connection......

Now the interesting part......

He was a Colonel in the British Army, Audit and Accounting Department, the Chief Paymaster / Accountant in Egypt and a supplier of funds to the Army and possibly to Lawrence......  

He was the Chief Financial Advisor to General Edmund Allenby.....

He worked in the Financial Adviser's Office, General Headquarters 1st Echelon, Egyptian Expeditionary Force up until 1919.....

Will fill in the name and more information as soon as I am able to confirm the above.....

 

Mike

 

[bigjarofwasps]

Lawrence wishes to fulfill his promises to unite the Arab tribes when he continues his work in the desert with British support of arms, money, and training: 

Lawrence: Arabia is for the Arabs now. That's what I've told them anyway. That's what they think. That's why they're fighting.

Allenby: Oh surely.

Lawrence: They've only one suspicion. We let them drive the Turks out and then move in ourselves. I've told them that that's false, that we've no ambitions in Arabia. Have we?

Allenby: I'm not a politician, thank god. Have we any ambition in Arabia, Dryden?

Dryden: Difficult question sir.

Lawrence: I want to know sir, if I can tell them, in your name, that we've no ambitions in Arabia.

Allenby: Certainly.

Lawrence: Two thousand small arms, not enough. I need five.

Allenby: Right.

Lawrence: Money. It'll have to be sovereigns. They don't like paper.

Allenby: Right.

Lawrence: Instructors for the Lewis guns.

Allenby: Right.

Lawrence: More money.

Allenby: How much more?

Lawrence: Twenty-five thousand now. A lot more later.

Allenby: Dryden?

Dryden: It can be done, sir.

Lawrence: A couple of armored cars.

Allenby: Right.

Lawrence: Field artillery.

Allenby: Right. I know to give you every blessed thing I can, Major Lawrence, because I know you'll use it. Congratulations and thank you.

On 17/11/2020 at 17:27, QSAMIKE said:

Good Morning Everyone......

It;s been 10 years since anything has been added to this thread so I thought I would add some more......

I have just obtained a group of medals that consist of:

Commander of the Order of the British Empire, Queen's South Africa Medal, World War One War Medal and Interallied Victory Medal with Mentioned in Despatches.......   

I have been contacted by the seller with information that they have found some papers and two more pieces of ribbon but no medals that as per the description are a French Legion of Honour and Egyptian Order of the Nile.....   If my research, which has just begun, confirms them I will get some and add them to group (but only if confirmed).....

There may be a Lawrence of Arabia (T. E. Lawrence) connection......

Now the interesting part......

He was a Colonel in the British Army, Audit and Accounting Department, the Chief Paymaster / Accountant in Egypt and a supplier of funds to the Army and possibly to Lawrence......  

He was the Chief Financial Advisor to General Edmund Allenby.....

He worked in the Financial Adviser's Office, General Headquarters 1st Echelon, Egyptian Expeditionary Force up until 1919.....

Will fill in the name and more information as soon as I am able to confirm the above.....

 

Mike

 

Mike

How interesting thanks for sharing, very much look forward to reading what you turn up!!

10 years, where does the time go!!

Gordon. 

 

[graham]

bigjarofwasps, a great classic movie. 

An interesting article which does briefly touch on the use of Gold Sovereigns in Arabia:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/true-story-lawrence-arabia-180951857/