KCVO

[Sal]

Just received this KCVO and when comparing to my earlier MVO I see the numbering style is more contemporary looking. Is it possible to date the period of manufacture or award based on the crown on the obverse top of the badge? I notice a difference in the various eras of DSO and am curious if it is possible to date the badge based on the engraving of the number or the crown motiff. I know they are king's crowns but not sure if there are variations in design over the years.

[GlennC]

Just received this KCVO and when comparing to my earlier MVO I see the numbering style is more contemporary looking. Is it possible to date the period of manufacture or award based on the crown on the obverse top of the badge? I notice a difference in the various eras of DSO and am curious if it is possible to date the badge based on the engraving of the number or the crown motiff. I know they are king's crowns but not sure if there are variations in design over the years.

Can you show revers of both, star and the cross

[Sal]

number is 1295

[Sal]

Badge reverse

[Mervyn Mitton]

Sal - how would you account for both examples having the 1295 number on their reverses ? The Crown on the Cross is one that I usually associate with late Queen Victoria and early Edward 7th. - the other one is typical George 5 and 6.

[Sal]

Sal - how would you account for both examples having the 1295 number on their reverses ? The Crown on the Cross is one that I usually associate with late Queen Victoria and early Edward 7th. - the other one is typical George 5 and 6.

Mervyn,

Exactly my dilemma, although I did not notice the difference until I had it in hand and compared the crown to my Victorian DSO...I have no idea why they both have the same number; I thought they might have been brought together and numbered then sold as a set, but I have never seen any grade of the order without a number. I missed the crown difference because I was looking at the numbering which id not look like the numbering I have on my other piece. I'm at a loss because I would expect to see some sign of renumbering if they were coupled from 2 different eras and issued as a set but renumbered 1295. I cannot find any evidence that a previous number was removed and reassigned unless it was done by the jeweler who made the order. I also compared it to my lower grade and in my limited level of expertise, it appears to be a let cross and star......I also would expect to see a "C" preceding the number if it was a awarded as a commander grade of the order.

Any suppositions from you or the collective community?

Edited May 26, 2011 by Sal

[Sal]

Here is my MVO (LVO) with same crown as seen on the star. It is numbered 373 and is also marked "4" and "373" on the reverse of the Collingwood & Co. case.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Sal - to my mind these are award numbers and therefore the link is through them. Did you , perhaps, buy them from the same source - even at different times ? Sometimes families sell items and keep back others. The Royal Victorian Order - as I am sure you know, is in the personal gift of the Sovereign and they restrict issue.

The Order of Chancery in London (sorry, don't know address, but, I'm sure someone will) will have records and could check these numbers. If they are to the same person - then Bingo ! The alternative is to write to Her Majesty at Buckingham Palace , London. It will of course be dealt with by an assistant - however, with Her interest something is likely to be done - and it impresses the Postman and the neighbours when you get an envelope with the ER Monogram.......

Perhaps someone will have other ideas about the numbers ? Mervyn

[Sal]

Mervyn, that is perfect advice.....you are correct, the royal cypher will should impress, however I think some folks where I live don't even know where Great Britain is. I had planned to write the Chancery to ID the set based on the number. J Collins Medals has a Commander grade on ebay with a letter from the Chancery, I will try that address.

The interesting thing is that I bought them together as a set but the seller had no info or history. The control of issuance is what got me wondering about the 2 different crowns, although they both appear to be variants of the Tudor Crown, the time period of their use is what seems to cause me pause, however I do not doubt they are legit pieces,I'd like to ID and solve the mystery of the 2 variant crowns together. Until I get some information back, my thoughts are that they were manufactured at different times (thus the crown variations) and were numbered and issued together as a KCVO set without noting the difference.

Thanks for your help.

Tony

[JBFloyd]

Unless the Chancery has changed a long-standing policy, they do not answer inquiries about the numbers on orders.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Well then - perhaps the Queen can open a door ? Interesting your thoughts on the Crown. Queen Victoria's Crown is the King Edward Crown - re-made after the original was lost. The Crown used by Edward, George 5&6 is the Imperial State Crown - created after we declared an Empire in the 1870's. The miniature crown the old Queen wore was also the Imperial.

When a new Monarch is proclaimed he/she have several decisions to make. Which Crown - the direction they face on stamps and coins - and the Cypher (initials) they will have used on post boxes, badges etc.. They also, have to decide on the name they will be known as while Sovereign. Some of the wonderful old traditions that persist in Britain.

[Komtur]

I would like to know, if there are modern copies of the commander of the Victoria Order around? My special interest are German imperial decorations and unfortunately I know not much about British ones. Because I would like to buy such a commander cross I wonder, what is a fair price?

Any help is appreciated!

Thanks and regards,

Komtur.

[pieter1012]

Sal,

as far as I know Vicorian Orders issued to foreigners were and are still unnumbered. I have a KCVO set awarded to a foreigner that is unnumbered.

Pieter

[James Hoard]

If it is true that honorary awards to foreigners are not numbered, then there would seem to be a bit of a problem for a KCVO with the number 1295.

In the days before the London Gazette was placed online, I compiled a full list of awards for all grades of the order. As of the close of 2005 only 1161 appointments of substantive KCVOs had been made.

However, the 1295th person to be appointed CVO was Brigadier-General Percy Stewart Cooper, CVO,OBE, CD (of Canada). His date of appointment being 3.8.1973.

Consequently, I suspect a marriage of a CVO badge with a spare older KCVO breast star, which may have lost its orginal partner-of-the-neck somewhere along the line.

As for the MVO 4th class, number 373 on my list is The Rt Hon Reginald (Walsh), 5th Lord Ormathwaite. His date of appointment is 24.4.1906. He was a member of HM's Consular Service and never progressed beyond MVO.

Cheers,

James Hoard

[Sal]

James, thank you for the information and insight. I have sadly not had the time to try to write for information on the awardees, so this is a great bit of information. Would you suppose then, from your information on the KCVO that the set was put together and numbered to make it more desirable or lend credence to it? I had some cause for pause when i saw the look of the numbering, but thought it might be possible these were joined by the Chancery from 2 returned pieces returned for higher grade appointments.

[James Hoard]

Sal,

One cannot be completely sure but I could imagine a scenario whereby there were no takers for a breast star on its own. The first question most potential buyers would have was where's the neck badge? By marrying the odd breat star with a CVO badge, the dealer not only disposes of his breast star but gets a higher price for it. A KCVO set usually goes for more than three times as much as the commanding price for a CVO.

On the other hand, if it had been a neck badge on its own, the badge could always be sold off on its own as a CVO. Most buyers would assume that it really was a CVO and would not automatically be looking for a missing star.

The number for a CVO neck badge could well be correct and a "modern" looking engraving seems to fit with the number of awards dating to around 1973.

Cheers,

James

[Sal]

Very interesting James, thank you....I think you have solved it. I would tend to believe that the CVO was numbered as you say and joined with the star. There does not seem to be any indication that a previous number was removed and this one added, so is it plausible the star was not numbered and later numbered to match the CVO and make a set (assuming that foreign awards were not numbered, it is possible there was an unumbered specimen out there?)

While bothersome that it's likely put together, I do like each piece for what they are so at least they display well.

I am jazzed about the identification of my MVO, that is the little chestnut in this thread for me, so thank you again for that.

[Komtur]

What period could this CVO be? I suppose early 20th century, if they count continuously?

Regards, Komtur.

[James Hoard]

Komtur,

The 134th appointment on the list of Commanders of the Royal Victorian Order was Colonel Stanier Waller, CVO, OBE, and officer of the Corps of Royal Engineers. His date of appointment being 10.2.1904.

This fits with the Imperial Crown that you see.

Cheers,

James

[Odulf]

I would not put to much trust in these numbers. I remember a discussion in the Orders and Medals Research Society long ago about the subject of numbering the badges of this Order. It seems that the badges of all grades which were returned, later were re-issued. Thus, a badge with a low number can be re-issued half a century later.

[Komtur]

... The 134th appointment on the list of Commanders of the Royal Victorian Order was Colonel Stanier Waller ...

That´s great ! I am sure it was his decoration. Searching on Google there is an information of his medal group sold by Emedals/Canada. Unfortunately I am not able to open www.emedals.ca . May be, his group is there still to be seen, they often not delete sold items. I got the single CVO from a German dealer.

Regards, Komtur.

[James Hoard]

So you are saying that in the dicussion you had at the OMRS you were told that a badge issued with an Imperial Crown in the reign of Edward VII, as in this case, was reissued in the reign of Elizabeth II when the insignia called for a Queen's Crown?

Or, perhaps we should not put too much trust in hearsay?

[Great Dane]

Sal,

as far as I know Vicorian Orders issued to foreigners were and are still unnumbered. I have a KCVO set awarded to a foreigner that is unnumbered.

Pieter

Not so sure about that... I have seen several - verified - Victorian Orders to foreigners that were numbered.

By 'verified' I mean there is no doubt the order in question was the one that foreigner received.

/Michael

[James Hoard]

Michael,

Very interesting indeed.

Which was the last numbered Royal Victorian Order to a foreigner you saw? What was his name and what was the number?

Cheers,

James

[Great Dane]

I saw one as late as earlier today. It was a 5th class cross with a 4-digit number (I think it was 1200-something - can't really remember exactly).

It was awarded to a danish court official (and worn from its danish-style ribbon).

The order and the award document - together with the rest of his orders/papers - was auctioned off as one big lot a couple of years ago.

/Michael