Mint mark M – timing analysis

[Dieter3]

I think they are practically identical only private has more thin lines (this is common feature of early signs) and two or three small differences that connected with hieroglyph shape.

Yes, these do look much more similar with that photo - the other one casted shadows that made my eyes perceive the characters as looking "stylized" when they are in fact not! The differences seem minor, but they are still somewhat significant, at least I think so!! ;)

[JapanX]

Now this is interesting, and something I didn't even think about. This explains a lot - if the Japan Mint, not Osaka was making items, and the Japan Mint has no hallmark - well, that explains all those un-hallmarked pieces! I was under the mis-impression that only the Osaka mint made medals after the scandal. Did the Japan mint use hallmarks???

But why then pieces with M mark and pieces without this mark are an exact equivalents of each other?

And I was inder the impression that Japan Mint = Osaka Mint ;)

[Dieter3]

But why then pieces with M mark and pieces without this mark are an exact equivalents of each other?

And I was inder the impression that Japan Mint = Osaka Mint

Me too! Am I lost?? But there are other mints, like the one in Tokyo, but I don't know who made what or when, other than Osaka.....help, my brain hurts...... :blush:

[drclaw]

Ohmigosh, what an interesting thread! I can't add anything of value but have been following this closely.

It would be a real revelation if there were more than one mint (Osaka Mint) producing these!

[DavidS]

In reply to #4, I have a 1st Class Pillars of Stae with Mint Mark and 3rd Class without.

See pictures for 1st Class

[JapanX]

In reply to #4, I have a 1st Class Pillars of Stae with Mint Mark and 3rd Class without.

See pictures for 1st Class

Thanks a lot David!

Let me guess - no marks on the breast star?

Cheers,

Nick

[DavidS]

Right again, Nick!

I have 2 breast stars (one in 1st Class assembly, the other 2nd Class). Neither has a mint mark.

David

[JapanX]

Right again, Nick!

I have 2 breast stars (one in 1st Class assembly, the other 2nd Class). Neither has a mint mark.

David

Same thing with the Clouds breast stars...

Nice collection David! Nice material for collector gallery...

Regards,

Nick

Edited October 23, 2011 by JapanX

[marrauder]

Hello, I have M marked 7th Rising Sun. It came in dark brown case without buttonhole device. I would like to know two things:

- does the dark brown case belong to the same era as M marked medal, in other words, is it correct case?

- what is correct device for this set? Rosette or bow ribbon?

Thanks in advance

[marrauder]

Dark brown case (although it doesn´t look like brown on my photo)

[JapanX]

Hi Miro

Well (whereas that I don't see all the enamel work, but I see the ribbon and a box) I think this piece came straight from Meiji era and bow rosette will suit it pretty well

Cheers,

Nick

Edited December 29, 2011 by JapanX

[marrauder]

Thanks, here is enamel

[marrauder]

obverse

[JapanX]

Well the badge looks like its from Meiji and the box matched with it pretty well.

Cheers,

Nick

[marrauder]

Good to hear that.Thanks Nick.

[Dieter3]

Hmmmm. I'm not necessarily convinced that it is Meiji. I've seen pieces in this case style with both bow and button rosettes. I think it merits more study!

[marrauder]

In this phase it means I will do nothing bad when I buy first buttonhole device I meet. Button rosette is quite easier to find.

Miro

[Dieter3]

I think you'd be O.K. either way. I also believe that rosettes could be replaced if lost or damaged, so a lost bow may very well end up as a button! Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I could swear I read or heard about this.

[JapanX]

Dieter do you really think that I am dating orders by the boxes or rosettes?!

I am using only and only manufacturing style, color of enamel and ribbon color/material of this or that order.

And by all these characteristics this badge has a very high probability to be Meiji era order.

I believe that boxes and rosettes could be used only as additional and not crucial features.

Using boxes and rosettes for dating orders ... Well, it is similar to using color to determine is this fruit mandarin or orange and ignoring the size of the fruit

Cheers,

Nick

[Dieter3]

I don't know that enamel color or ribbon color is necessarily realiableexcept in very early medals; one must take into account multiple features of all of the components compiling a given award. I think cases and rosettes can be very important features for dating! I believe the majority of medals really belong to their cases and that mixers are the exception, so this really shouldn't be a determinig factor). There are clear distinctions in case styles that define at least in part, en era. One must carefully observe the evolution - take the extremes - look how vastly different a Hirata case is as compared to a post-war! Absolutely everything has changed! Now starting moving towards the middle and note the trends and patterns.

What features exactly of that medal are you using to place it in Meiji era?

[JapanX]

Well this is what I am thinking.

From my subjective experience rosettes are very often mismatched (not even by style (this is "extreme mismatch", but by the color of the rosette material and the ribbon - don't tell me you didn't notice that quite often - and I am not talking here about obvious mismatch - the kind we see in case of your new 8th class treasure). Boxes are less often mismatch, but ... Let me put it this way ... This is not impossible act... Far from it! So sorry, but it's quite risky way. Especially in case of rosettes...

Hirata boxes are just one of several variations... And we couldn't (well I coudn't:)) date them precisely.

So boxes couldn't be dated precisely - every type have time variation in 5-10 years (at least!). And this is minimum!

Only rosettes styles could be dated more a less precisely. But not rosette material. Nope. You couldn't dated it.

Here and there and everywhere we see color mismatch between ribbons of the order and rosette in the box (even in case of early kites!). This because every holder could buy replacement ribbons and rosettes in specialized shops.

This are my reasons for more than conservative attitude toward these two (boxes and rosettes) coordinates. But of course they are invaluable additional factors for more precise (or more confident) dating of the given piece.

But the main factors are

Manufacturing style

Color enamel shades

Ribbon type (watered/non-watered, colors, their shades, intensity, etc)

In case of Miro 8th class my reasons were

red stripes on the ribbon have typical for Meiji/Taisho intensive dark crimson color (not that pale-watered-red later WW II nonsense) and the color of the leaf is emerald green which is quite typical for Meiji/Taisho pieces. The box is helpful too It is like your box for the marked M 8th class of rising sun, which indicate that it came from Meiji/Taisho epoch.

Of course the enamel shades are tricky (putting it mildly) thing when we are talking about attribution by photo material.

But of course there are this mint mark M which I miss...

In light of this evidence this piece may be from 1910-1936. This is for sure.

Hope you will like this one Dieter

Nick

P.S. I should get a medal for post that long :lol:

Edited December 30, 2011 by JapanX

[Paul L Murphy]

Actually the easiest way to date a 7th or 8th class Rising Sun is by using the length of the 3rd curling vein in the leaf counting out from the bottom. I have observed a few hundred pieces over the years, including a good few examples in groups or with documents where I am comfortable that they were an original pairing, and the basic rule is that the longer the vein, the older the striking.

On this piece the 3rd vein ends just at the indentation of the leaf, which would lead me to suggest that it is from the Taisho era (Siberian expedition or thereabouts). Russo Japanese War pieces have a longer vein that protrudes below the level of the indentation while China Incident era pieces are shorter and end above it.

What is interesting is that the later post war pieces again have a longer vein but they have no enamel on the reverse of the 7th class and have a different "feel" to the depth of the overall stamping.

[JapanX]

Well, Paul I guess this is another possible way, but personally I've never found it easier

Kinda tricky one.

Actually this "vein thing" have never worked for me

And I have serious doubts about its efficiency.

But maybe it's just me and wrong veins of my badges?

Let's try it out.

Could you please show how this "vein thing" should look like for Meiji/Taisho/Showa piece (in lower and higher classes)?

Because I have troubles with veins of my pieces.

I guess I just don't have all that your experience ("few hundreds" - I should really start counting mine encounters).

Well... What I can say? They call me a beginner... :lol:

Edited December 29, 2011 by JapanX

[marrauder]

I purchased this 7th Rising Sun with two photos of man, civilian, possibly previous holder of the award. Photos are from 60-70´s, and guy is there still in productive age (both photos are from his work, looks like he was running some company). It can be tricky, (although I ask why, those photos were not offered in auction to raise the price, they just came silently with the box), but if these are real holder photos, the period 1910 - 1936 is OK, but as closer to year 1936 as possible.

Regards

[JapanX]

Well ...

Boxes, rosettes, photos...

They are nice features ...

No doubt about it.

But no mire than nice...

One could mess with them as along and as many times as he wish...

And then there are orders. It's hard to mess (not to "mess up" one though ) with these things.

That's why I think this way is safer one.

Let me guess Miro - on the photos just the man without any medals. Right?

Ok. Now please check this thread.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/31665-magnificient-ribbon-bar/page__p__298844__hl__bolgarin__fromsearch__1#entry298844

We've got medal bar + photo of holder. They are coincide. The orders are in full agreement with the age. Overall condition of the medals in the bar looks authentic. And still there were a lot of unjustified (from my point of view of course) doubts. What do you think we will get in our case (photos without actual medals and actual date around). Just think about that!

Regards,

Nick

Edited December 30, 2011 by JapanX