“Vein” approach to dating Rising Sun Orders: a DaNgErOuS pAtH

[JapanX]

Reverse

[JapanX]

Couple weeks ago I talked with one of my colleagues. We were discussing lower classes of Rising Sun Order and he said to me that he “wasn’t completely persuaded by my arguments” in this thread.

To be honest I was shocked

I thought that I clearly demonstrate how dangerous this approach was (and is) …

Doubting Thomas

So I said to myself “I should finish what I started “lest there be any doubt””

[JapanX]

Allow me to introduce to you this beautiful 8^th class rising sun order awarded to Uemura Sanzo in 1879 (!).

Overview

[JapanX]

Obverse/Reverse

[JapanX]

Reverse close up

[JapanX]

With and in the box

[JapanX]

The box

[JapanX]

Doc

[JapanX]

Beautiful engraving details

[JapanX]

Text close ups

[JapanX]

Tube

Edited April 8, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Well, it appears that we are done with Meiji!

Let’s draw our attention to Taisho epoch!

What we have here is a WWI group of five awarded to Able Seaman R. C. Trevithick, Royal Navy.

[JapanX]

Group

[JapanX]

From left to right:

Distinguished Service Medal, G.V.R. (224420 R. C. Trevithick, A.B., Mediterranean Station, 1917);

1914-15 Star (224420 R. C. Trevithick, A.B., R.N.);

British War and Victory Medals (224420 R. C. Trevithick, A.B., R.N.);

Order of the Rising Sun, 8^th Class.

Edited April 7, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Richard Charles Trevithick was born in St. Ives, Cornwall in January 1886 and entered the Royal Navy as a Boy 2^nd Class in January 1903. Advanced to Able Seaman in August 1906, he was serving in the battle cruiser H.M.S. Indefatigable on the outbreak of hostilities in August 1914, and remained similarly employed until coming ashore to Vivid I in October 1915. Returning to sea with an appointment in the sloop Gladiolus from January to November 1916, he removed to the Ribola on the Mediterranean Station in the following month, in which ship he was awarded his D.S.M. and served until joining the destroyer Acheron in July 1917. Having then ended the War in the Acheron, he was demobilized in April 1919, but served in the Royal Fleet Reserve until June 1921.

[JapanX]

Nice!

But even nicer is the date when our hero received his 8^th class of Rising Sun Order.

April 6, 1918 (according to London Gazette)!!!

I think we are done with Taisho epoch either!

[JapanX]

I hope now you understand more clearly my dear colleagues why I permit myself to make this statement

[JapanX]

But it will be wrong to conclude that every piece from Meiji epoch should have such vein!!!

I hope that settles the matter.

Regards,

Nick

[Paul L Murphy]

Nice!

But even nicer is the date when our hero received his 8^th class of Rising Sun Order.

April 6, 1918 (according to London Gazette)!!!

I think we are done with Taisho epoch either!

This lot was recently sold in a London medal auction and I was lucky enough to be able to handle it at the viewing. I was actually going to bid on it until I handled it, however it was clearly a post war Rising Sun that had been added to the group. Unfortunately you cannot see the reverse in the auction photos, but it had all the characteristics that Dieter has shown on his post war 7th class in earlier posts within this thread.

[JapanX]

... it was clearly a post war Rising Sun that had been added to the group.

As I understand because

... it had all the characteristics that Dieter has shown on his post war 7th class in earlier posts within this thread.

i.e. kanji style on reverse in points 3a, 3b, 3c was "post-war" style?

Correct?

P.S. If you are right, then somebody paid on September 23, 2011 exactly 1300 pounds sterling for doctored group ... If it is indeed doctored of course...

[Paul L Murphy]

Exactly, which is why I ended up not bidding on it ! Most collectors of Royal Navy gallantry groups will not know or care that the Rising Sun is not original to the group. They will have been after the DSM and the story behind it.

[JapanX]

Exactly, which is why I ended up not bidding on it !

Maybe this was a mistake

Dating rising suns through reverse inscription style is as problematic, as dating them by veins.

If piece has reverse with 2a/2b/2c features, then this piece belong to Meiji, but the opposite statement will be false.

That is not every rising sun order from Meiji or Taisho epoch obliged to has 2a/2b/2c features on reverse.

There are Meiji and Taisho specimens with 3a/3b/3c type reverses.

Feature 2b and 2c show instability even among "pure Meiji" pieces.

2a is the most stable sign of "pure Meiji" pieces. 2b is second best, but more unstable.

I am afraid that 2a/2b/2c and 3a/3b/3c will work stably only in case of comparison "pure Meiji" piece and "made after 30s" piece.

Of course I don't examine in person this group that we are talking about.

But I really like the homogeneous patina, although ribbons looks like they are later replacements.

But the auction house has good reputation (so I don't think that they "doctored" this group).

And even more important - I believe that there were several different manufacturers between 1900s and 1920s (to say nothing about earlier times) and they were using slightly different dies. That's why the probability of parallel existence of different types during this time period is pretty high.

Edited April 8, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Are the inscriptions on reverses helpful in dating of rising suns in two lower (7^th and 8^th) classes? Let’s get it straight right now!

Well, the legend says that Meiji pieces (or “old” pieces) should have this type of inscription (type 1)

[JapanX]

and pieces from Showa (“modern” pieces) this one (type 3)

[JapanX]

Here they are together (for comparison purposes )