“Vein” approach to dating Rising Sun Orders: a DaNgErOuS pAtH

[JapanX]

Well, this legend will be helpful when we talk about pieces from 1875-1900 (for “old” pieces) and pieces from 1930-2003 (fro “modern” pieces). But when we’ll try to find Taisho pieces with its help – we are in trouble. Allow me to illustrate.

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Obverse (this piece looks like it is old good Meiji/Taisho piece – that is according to “vain dating approach” )

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Reverse (exactly like “modern” pieces reverse)

[JapanX]

Impressive?!

That’s nothing!

This piece will be the real deal!!! (by the way, I think our colleague Arvydas showed close relative of this piece couple months ago – on the eve of the New Year

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/52664-a-pair-of-8s-rising-sun/)

We will call it “eccentric”

[JapanX]

In the box

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Obverse

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Reverse (some kind mix of type 1 and type 3 inscriptions)

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Did you notice something strange about the obverse of this piece?

If “no”, then check this out!

[JapanX]

This is kinda strange!

But even stranger will be this bias

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And now this type (of his close relative ) with document.

Private 1^st class Sibata was awarded with this 8^th class on April 1, 1906 (!).

[JapanX]

Obverse/Reverse

[JapanX]

Looks like Paul’s group of four to Private Kawamura Manjiro (looks like he get his 8^th class for Tsingtao operation at the start of the WWI (?), but I don’t know the exact date ) from WWI has same type of order (I wonder what kind of reverse inscription this order has).

[JapanX]

And to top it off – this nice pair comparison (7^th class from Showa and 8^th class from Taisho (by the “vein” approach of course ).

Obverses

Edited April 11, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Reverses

[JapanX]

It looks like the process of transformation of type 1 inscription into type 3 inscription started as early as in 1905! And what we’ve got here (from two examples above - post #81 and post #85) is type 2 (transitional) inscription.

Edited April 12, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Comparison

[JapanX]

The REAL question is WHEN type 2 inscription was replaced by type 3!

In 30s?

I don’t think so!

I think somewhere between 1910 and 1930.

Unfortunately I don’t have direct evidence (i.e. 100% original documented groups).

But I have indirect evidence.

For example this gallery of complete sets.

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Set 1

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Set 2

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Set 2 (cont.)

Edited April 11, 2012 by JapanX

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Set 3

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Are all these sets were doctored?

I don’t think so.

Why?

Sure thing you could find the bow rosette and the box and “combine” them with order.

But it is very hard (if possible at all) to find order with such ribbon color, that will be the exact match for bow rosette color

And there are too many of these perfect sets on the market

By the way please take a look at this set (another eccentric)

Edited April 11, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

In the box

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Different angles

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Reverse