Chris Boonzaier Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Hi, At some stage someone back in cyber time identified KO as "Konigliches Münzamt Orden Berlin"... and this has become an almost standard interpretation ... Everyone googles, finds that, and passes the information on. Personally I am not convinced... I see no period evidence that that is not simply pulled out of a hat. Does anyone know where this originates from and does anyone have any different ideas? It is arguably the biggest maker.... frustrating that we dont know who it was. Sascha has a theory that it is really late war, and that most post wat crosses are KOs, by which time "Konigliches" no longer existed... Would be interested to hear your take. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 P.S. there are also theories that Konigliches Münzamt Orden Berlin, could be Konigliches Münzamt Orden Stuttgart...or Konigliches Münzamt Orden Wien... Wien seems to be the most far fetched of all, and Stuttgart was not Prussian.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Wien is extremely unlikely, as wasn't even in the Reich. The most common crosses, foreign made? No way. I'd love to see the so calles "proove" for it in a book that was published recent years. Similar with Stuttgart - approx. half of all EKs made out of Prussia? Unlikely. However, Stuttgart mint's crosses are marked K.M. and K.M.ST. That is for sure. So now about the Berlin state mint? They did not produce just one EK. Prooven from their archive. Not by me, but I really like to spread the word. Regarding my convintion they are all rather late: How about to find the earliest one awarded? An interesting task! The ones I've seen were 1917, 1918 and post-war issues. None from 1914, 1915, 1916... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Wien is extremely unlikely, as wasn't even in the Reich. The most common crosses, foreign made? No way. I'd love to see the so calles "proove" for it in a book that was published recent years. Similar with Stuttgart - approx. half of all EKs made out of Prussia? Unlikely. However, Stuttgart mint's crosses are marked K.M. and K.M.ST. That is for sure. So now about the Berlin state mint? They did not produce just one EK. Prooven from their archive. Not by me, but I really like to spread the word. Regarding my convintion they are all rather late: How about to find the earliest one awarded? An interesting task! The ones I've seen were 1917, 1918 and post-war issues. None from 1914, 1915, 1916... Hi, I agree with all of the above, would be very interested to see the proof that the state mint produced none, I dont disbelieve that, but would love to have it hieb and stich fest. I think it hard to prove that the KO are all late war, especially if the K WERE to be Königlisches something ot other... I doubt in taht case they would have used that stamp after the kaiser had abdicated. In this instance i keep an open mind and hope for proof :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) The information about Berlin mint comes, if I remember correctely, from is Frau Bannicke who is a phaleristic and works in their archives. It sounded solid to me however, althought I've never seen a proove. Hard to prove they're late war, yes. But we could narrow it down with provenanced crosses. Named groups with Wehrpasses, crosses with documents and so. I'm not betting, but if I were, I'd bet we wont's find a KO-EK1 from before 1917... Edited February 16, 2012 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I can show one that was awarded in Aug 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 I am wondering something.... If Sascha is right, and these KOs are late war... it may be that the bulk of early war were the 800 from various makers and KO came in later... And here is what I wonder... as the KO have various rims, cores and hinges... could it be that they were not a maker at all? It is of course all supposition, but maybe there were delivery problems, maybe domed crosses were getting on the kaisers nerves, maybe there were ugly looking crosses without siilver rooms, and the KO (Kaiserlichen Ordenkanzlei, Königliche Ordenskanzlei whatever) contracted out to different makers, approved crosses with a KO stamp and delivered them to the front... like a LDO quality control board? Just a wild thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streptile Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) I've never personally seen a KO cross (that I believed in or did not have a replaced ring) with anything other than their traditional and very distinctive frame. I think they used only one frame, but I'd be happy to see something new. They used various cores, for sure. Their frame is ntoable for having the smallest arm width (measured on the outside) of any maker, giving them the appearance of a very small cross. I agree that KO is not Konigliches Münzamt Orden Berlin. I don't think too many people believe this old theory anymore. I have read interesting theories for: Paul Küst Orden, Berlin and Klein u. Quenzer Oberstein ...but nothing to convince me beyond the shadow of a doubt yet. I think KO remains an unknown maker and I also believe them to be from the 2nd half of the war, absolutely. Edited February 18, 2012 by Streptile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If Sascha is right, and these KOs are late war... it may be that the bulk of early war were the 800 from various makers and KO came in later... Most of "800" crosses shown in the other thread are vaulted, and thus private purchase crosses. Awarded crosses are flat, and usually not silver marked, but only maker marked (CD 800 being an exception). The shown "800" crosses (or some of them) might indeed be rather early and pre-date the K.O.s, but they are not what was awarded before K.O. came in later. The typical rather early award crosses are those by WS, S-W, G, Fr. and so, which are most probably the well-known Berlin jewelers Johann Wagner & Söhne, Sy & Wagner, Godet, Friedländer... (and some more) It is a known fact the Prussian Generalordenskommsission did order their EKs 1st class from Berlin makers only. This didn't change until the GOK was superseded by the Eisenbahnzentralamt in ca. mid 1917(?). They then ordered crosses not only from Berlin. I don't know for sure if they ordered from additional other makers in Prussia, or from in all Germany. There is an articel on OuE (German BDOS/DGO magazine), based on archive work, by Dr. Scharfenberg. It is, in some main points, quoted and discussed on German SDA forum. Scharfenberg's article is probably the most important in this issues ever published - as it's based on archive facts, and not on guesses and observations. (as almost anything else). Chris, I'll gladly look the mentioned thread out for you! Now that you're on SDA... :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Chris, I'll gladly look the mentioned thread out for you! Now that you're on SDA... Here it is: http://h1797427.stratoserver.net/public_html/wbb3/board3-3/board144-eisernes-kreuz-1813-1870-1914/34645-die-br%C3%BCnierten-eks-typen-und-varianten/index2.html#post267668 The thread is a bit confusing due to serveral confused topics, but the hard facts given, quoted by CSForrester from the mentioned Scharfenberg article, are worth their weight in gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 "It is a known fact the Prussian Generalordenskommsission did order their EKs 1st class from Berlin makers only. This didn't change until the GOK was superseded by the Eisenbahnzentralamt in ca. mid 1917(?). They then ordered crosses not only from Berlin. " Here is a thought.... If KOs appreared around the time the Eisenbahnzentralamt took over.... could the stamp be related to a dept instead of a maker? From the amount of KO pieces, we are talking big industry here, not a hole in the wall backyard jeweller... Could KO be some kind of cooperative of artisans that did contract work? The village my wife came from did that with clothes all throughouth the 30s and into the 50s. Companies would bring the already cut cloth, some people just sewed sleeves, some did buttons etc... Maybe in 1917 the Eisenbahnzentralamt got tired of Jewellers and decided to move into the industrial age with mass production... having a foundry doing the cores, a Prägewerk doing the rims, and a number of firms putting them together... I would imagine within the Eisenbahnzentralamt that there was a department responsible for this? They must have had a name and designation... maybe the secret to KO is hidden there? Best Chris P.S. I think Klein and Quenzer is waaaaay too far fetched to be seriously considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 As Trevor pointed out, KO crosses share one frame (thanks never noticed this!), which makes it very likely they are from one factory. No doubt the Eisenbahnzentralamt "decided to move into the industrial age with mass production". They had to do! Demand was extremely high in 1917, 1918... but a change from rather small jewelers to rather big factories was probably enough change to get enough crosses... P.S. I think Klein and Quenzer is waaaaay too far fetched to be seriously considered. To be honest, it's the best thing I've heard by now, but with no proves... it's just an hypothsis. By the way, now "Idar-Oberstein" was just "Oberstein" back then, and Klein & Quenzer claims to have made about a million(!!!) of WW1 Iron Crosses, probably in some mid-war advertising. I don't have the source for it, but it's quoted on German wikipedia. So, there is a maker who made a million crosses, which is about a 5th of all crosses awarded... and this maker is K lein & Quenzer from Oberstein... it does sound plausible to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 To be honest, it's the best thing I've heard by now, but with no proves... it's just an hypothsis. By the way, now "Idar-Oberstein" was just "Oberstein" back then, and Klein & Quenzer claims to have made about a million(!!!) of WW1 Iron Crosses, probably in some mid-war advertising. I don't have the source for it, but it's quoted on German wikipedia. So, there is a maker who made a million crosses, which is about a 5th of all crosses awarded... and this maker is K lein & Quenzer from Oberstein... it does sound plausible to me! I just dont see it.... They were making medals, had a quality control... if it had been an error in the stamp they would have changed it... "Sht! we have KO instead of KQ !" As it is on the EK1 stamp, and the EK2 stamp, it must have been deliberate... but with what logic? No other maker seems to have included their location in their initials. And how did Klein explain it to Quenzer ? "Hey Quenzer... guess what... we are jacking these out by the thousands but leaving your initial off!" Its like Paul Simon pulling a fast one on Art and renaming the "Simon and Garfunkel live in central park" album "Simon/NYC live in Central park" Somewhere there must be a paper with this mystery hidden on it... I am thinking of going up to Berlin for a week in April to visit the Archive mentioned on the SDA forum, just have to see how practicle that would be. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streptile Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 And how did Klein explain it to Quenzer ? "Hey Quenzer... guess what... we are jacking these out by the thousands but leaving your initial off!" Ha ha! That's a good one I never considered. I agree that K&Q is a stretch, but it's one of the theories out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 By the way, now "Idar-Oberstein" was just "Oberstein" back then, and Klein & Quenzer claims to have made about a million(!!!) of WW1 Iron Crosses, probably in some mid-war advertising. I don't have the source for it, but it's quoted on German wikipedia. So, there is a maker who made a million crosses, which is about a 5th of all crosses awarded... and this maker is K lein & Quenzer from Oberstein... it does sound plausible to me! Hi, I am still sceptical that Klein would simply drop the "Q" .. and say "Hey Alfred... there is no space for you on the cross... if "WILM" can get 4 letters on a ring, surely "KQO" would have fitted as well? There is one small fact that maybe could have influenced this... According to Wikipedia, Alfred Quenzer died in 1918... If he had been (and i have no idea if he died of a long cancer or was hit by a bus) out of it for a period, maybe by the time Klein and Quenzer started making high volume crosses in mid-late 1917.. old Klein thought... "hmmmm...I am going to have the firm to mayself..." and started stamping "KO" for "Klein-Oberstein".... then old Quenzers relatives said "Nah.. we will keep our piece of the firm..." It is just a wild idea tossed into the pot... but KO thrives on wild ideas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeJ Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Very interesting thread and until reading it, I had not noticed that I have never seen a KO cross in a early war style case. I have only seen them in mid to late and possibly post war cases. Of course crosses and cases can be switched around but yet I still have never seen one in an early style case like the other makers already mentioned here. I have two cased KOs in my collection with mid-post war type cases and have seen hundreds more with these same types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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