EK 1914 Rothe & Neffe EK1 ?

[Daniel Murphy]

I acquired this EK 1 a couple days ago because I liked it and it was in 900 silver. The core has been repainted many years ago and it is cracked between the crown and W. When I got it home, I looked it over with a jewelers loupe and found hallmarks under the pin near the hinge. At the time I could make out the Diana head (silver) and FR in a diamond (tax paid) hallmarks but not much else. I had little hope of getting a good picture of the hallmarks since I could not see them very well with the loupe. As you shall see they turned out better than expected.

Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Reverse.

[Daniel Murphy]

Close up of silver mark and hinge.

[Daniel Murphy]

Close up of the hallmarks. Above is the "A" for Vienna, bottom right is the "Diana head", bottom left is the "FR" in a diamond. In the center is that a "R & N" stamped over another weak "A"?

Dan Murphy

[Motorhead]

That's very interesting! I haven't got one of these in my collection-but this can be a "link" to an austrian made EK!let's wait what the others think about this...

Micha

[Stogieman]

I think that's one of the nicer Rothe EK's I've seen in a very long time....

[joe campbell]

as much as anything, i LOVE the hinge and

pin on this very fine cross.

the countersinking of the hinge is unique

and the shape of the pin as well. it does not

remind me of ANY of the usual manufacturers,

german OR austrian, but certainly falls

within the quality parameters usually seen

with the rothe u. neffe.

wonderful find, dan!

sorry i can't be much help with the MM.

joe

[Guest Rick Research]

Afraid I cannot "see" anything that doesn't look like dings and scratches and patina for the maker and assay marks.

Might that also be an "R&F" for Rozet & Fischmeister?

Despite all the "hype" over Rothe (tarnished in my mind by far too many decades of fakes peddled under their once good old name) I think Rozet & Fischmeister actually did better quality work-- and that this piece is an unknown type makes me wonder if it is because it came from the lesser-known maker?

[Motorhead]

So here's my question again-Are Rothe&Neffe EKs known? The two EKs in Previtera's book(both in one case) are hard to judge-from what I can see they are shurly Eks made in the 20ies.So it's posssible that R&N was "just" a retailer? I like the Ek shown in this thread and would like to have it in my own collection-but is it really Rothe&Neffe? Hard case.......

Micha

[DavidM]

Hello

I have no idea if this is a Rothe & Neffe EK, but whoever made it knew how to make nice pieces

[Daniel Murphy]

Joe,

The hinge is sitting on an oval base, not countersunk. Just an optical illusion. Rick, I tried to get a better pic of the hallmarks for you, but could not. We are talking about some hand applied almost microscopic marks on a rounded piece of silver not more than 3mm wide. Personally, if the Evil One says it is a Rothe, that is good enough for me. However, just for a possible last nail in the coffin for the rest of us.... Does anyone perhaps have a known Rothe that could be posted so that we could use it to compare core details and frame beading? Like you all, I just it. Thanks for the kind comments.

Dan Murphy

[joe campbell]

hoping this may be helpful....

i do not have a R&N EK 1,

but i DO have this.

it is an EK 2, from an R&N case,

as seen in "The Iron Time", an

inscribed cross given to an officer

in the communications wing on

the eastern front.

this is a general picture.

closer-ups to follow.

[joe campbell]

these are closer in views for the purpose

of comparison. if you have the talent to

put themside-by-side with dan's EK 1 and

it's okay with dan, please do so.

looking forward to it!

joe

[Mike K]

Hi,

Dan, interesting cross with very unusual markings!

Joe, your comparison as requested. Two very different cores imo - frames also appear to be different, taking image distortions into account.

The oval hinge-plate is common on WS examples, however the core on Dan's example does not match any of the 3 variants of WS cores I am aware of. WS were also into shaping/narrowing the top part of the pin, I assume for snug fitting into top uniform loops.

I have to agree with Micha's statement - I have yet to see a KNOWN DEFINITE R&N produced/marked EK! Stogie Rick, do you have any images of all the other R&N EKs you're referring to?? I recall a Niemann cased set from years ago (very long case with EK2 OVER, not next to, the EK1) but alas there were no reverse images and the obverse image was pretty poor.

Dan (and Rick L), regarding the markings and specifically the FR diamond marking (which I can't make out but I am not doubting you and understand the frustrations of imaging tiny markings in akward locations!), are any of the markings possibly IMPORT markings? For example, could the markings mean tax has been paid on a silver item imported by R&N into Austria?? I've never managed to pick up a copy of Tardy to try and figure these sorts of questions out.

Regards

Mike

Edited May 7, 2006 by Mike K

[Guest Rick Research]

No, "<FR>" is a luxury tax paid at point of origin. The other marks which you can see certainly indicate pre-1922 manufacture, and I'd be confident that indicates that this WAS made during the war.

[Mike K]

Hi Rick,

I've been doing some more net research and I agree with the pre-22 (amd probably wartime) date. I have now read though that the A may not reference the Vienna assay office, but instead stand for "ausland" and mean an import item.

Dan, withIN the Dianakopf there should be other markings (eg a number from 1 to 4 and a letter or letter number code) - what are they?

Regards

Mike

[Daniel Murphy]

Mike,

If they are there, I cannot see them. I have tried to get a more close up shot of the hallmarks, but when I blow it up too big I lose resolution and get a blur. Again, that mark is only about 1mm in size. There is only so much you can get on a stamp that small. I agree that the core and frame on Joes piece does not match mine. Since mine is a convex there would be a different mold/die for the core. I do not know if the frame for a convex would be struck from a different die and be pre-curved or would it be curved after being struck. As Rick L. stated the <FR> would not be on an item imported into Austria, it had to be made in Austria. According to my sources A is the code letter for Vienna until 1922. After 1922, the hallmark laws were changed and then the letter for Vienna was W (Wien). The head of Diana was also eliminated and various animal heads were used. The marks in the center are definitely an "R x _" or a misstamped "R & _". There is part of another letter there but it is so weak all I can see is a very weak vertical "l". The last letter could have been a N or a F or almost any other letter with a straight vertical line. It is just impossible to tell and even harder to show it to you all. Sorry, but with the equipment I have it just is not happening.

Dan Murphy

[Guest Rick Research]

Mike: mo, the tiny "A" in a circle almost invariably found on the rim at 1 o'clock position of Bravery Medals, Signum Laudis in silver etc was for the Vienna assay office. There was supposed to be another mark for the same awards made in Budapest-- but I have NEVER seen one and have forgotten what it was supposed to be-- I've been out of Austro-Hungarian collecting for more than 20 years now.

[ekhunter]

So here's my question again-Are Rothe&Neffe EKs known? The two EKs in Previtera's book(both in one case) are hard to judge-from what I can see they are shurly Eks made in the 20ies.So it's posssible that R&N was "just" a retailer? I like the Ek shown in this thread and would like to have it in my own collection-but is it really Rothe&Neffe? Hard case.......

Micha

I thought that the cross that Previtera called a Rothe & Neffe was actually a Meybauer. It is a pretty cross with a unique hinge and pin, but a Rothe & Neffe?

[Mike K]

Hi ekh,

You are correct imo, the Prinzen on P196 is a Meybauer. Micha was talking about the twin cased examples on P201 though. Imo it is clear enough that they are NOT the same as Dan's example - the "4" on Dan's example is unique for me so far, with the top of the 4 very open and the vertical arm almost straight. Both of the "4" on the Previtera book exampels are more typical of EKs with only a slight separation at the top of the "4".

One more question regarding the silver marks. As far as I know, Austria used a number system inside the Dianakopf (1 = 950/1000, 2 = 900/1000, 3 = 800/1000, 4 = 750/1000), so why is there a German style "900" stamp on the pin??

For Rick, Budapest was a P (for Pest) between 1967 and 1872.

Regards

Mike

[ekhunter]

Hi ekh,

You are correct imo, the Prinzen on P196 is a Meybauer. Micha was talking about the twin cased examples on P201 though. Imo it is clear enough that they are NOT the same as Dan's example - the "4" on Dan's example is unique for me so far, with the top of the 4 very open and the vertical arm almost straight. Both of the "4" on the Previtera book exampels are more typical of EKs with only a slight separation at the top of the "4".

One more question regarding the silver marks. As far as I know, Austria used a number system inside the Dianakopf (1 = 950/1000, 2 = 900/1000, 3 = 800/1000, 4 = 750/1000), so why is there a German style "900" stamp on the pin??

For Rick, Budapest was a P (for Pest) between 1967 and 1872.

Regards

Mike

Mike, I don't have my Iron Time book with me, but I think the crosses that you refer to were cased screwbacks. However, no reverse photos are shown. Micha and I have discussed in PM's in the past about the Rothe and Neffe's. Neither he nor I have seen one. I've seen AWS' and Meybauers' called Rothe & Neffe's. If anybody has one, or one that they think may be a Rothe & Neffe, then please post it. I hope they do exist, I've just never seen one, ever. You would think on all of the military forums that are out there, that some collector somewhere would have shown one. Like I said earlier, nice cross, unique pin, but a Rothe & Neffe?

[Mike K]

Hi ekhunter,

Yes, they are the ones referred to. One is pinback, one is screwback. No reverses. I have no idea if they are genuine R&Ns or not, only that they appear to share the same core but imo different have a different core to Dan's example.

I agree, with all the online experience out there and there is still no definitely id'd R&N! Don't know how many times I've seen a Meybauer called and R&N as well, but only recently on another forum saw an AWS called a R&N (hopefully moderator Micha has corrected that one now!).

I also agree, Dan has a great cross - I'd add it to my collection in a heartbeat!

Regards

Mike