Bad PCO2?

[Stogieman]

I have no interest in this piece, just curious what the consensus is, to me, it's bad, but I am suspicious type

[Stogieman]

Shot of the back. This is the eBay #

http://cgi.ebay.com/Imperial-German-Order-...1QQcmdZViewItem

To me, this puppy is way over the top and with our recent discussion of RAO fakes with Andreas, well.... let's just say I'm having a hard time swallowing this as the real deal.

[Daniel Krause]

very bad.

The usual nonsense produced in the 70ies I suppose.

Crowns with enamel ribbon are so insane rare that nearly NEVER one turns up; especially not at eBay.

Best regards

Daniel

[Guest Rick Research]

As close as I'll ever come to one-- sans the middle Xs, but RAO ribbon and "X am Ring." Sorry, this IS as good as the original photo is!

[attachmentid=17986][attachmentid=17987]

Most obliging of the elderly lost Prussian General (could that have been an 1813 EK2????) to have donned his sash OVER his medal bar.

Da, taken in Moskva by Photographer to His Imperial Majesty. No name, no date-- but last prize medal is 1872.

(As a further oddity, said studio's street address, Number 11 Kuznetsky Most, was later the address of manufacturers of the 1940 Khalkin Gol badge, with a name off the top of my head of something like the Moscow Enamel Artists Cooperative. )

[Wild Card]

Rick, very, very curious - post 4. There has to be a real story there.

Stogieman, I?m sorry but this piece really bothers me. I can?t speak to the cross (most likely good), the swords (probably), swords on ring (well...), the Red Eagle band; now here is where I really have a problem.

The few such bands that I have seen, that were good for sure, were all constructed with hinges. This is not to say that this one is not good because, as far as I know, there are no exact descriptions regarding this; but, as I said...

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Stogieman]

Hinges!? Now that would be interesting to see!

[Wild Card]

Hi Stogieman,

Absolutely, hinges. Several examples (some questionable) can be seen in Nimmergut?s magnum opus. Short of that, I know that I?ve seen pictures of other examples elsewhere; but can?t recall where at the moment. I will let you know if I find them.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

I?m back to report, thanks to George, success!

Yes, hinges... well sort of. At least that is what they look like and what we always called them; but, honestly, I could never figure out how they functioned as such; and since you got me going on this, I am convinced that they didn?t.

I see it this way. Because of the complexities of curvature of the ribbon (or enamel band), fitting it on to the badge or star would present numerous opportunities for bending, scraping and breaking. So the band would be made in one piece, cut into several and then reassembled using pins inserted through little collars with the end result look like hinges. That?s my story and I?m sticking with it.

Now, on the first example, below, we see a single hinge on the obverse at 6:oo o?clock. On the second, we see the more common arrangement of four ar 1:30, 4:30, 7:30 and 10:30.

I hope that this clarifies my terminology and is of some help.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Deruelle]

Hi,

I have found one exemplar in the Klenau, Sauerwald's book, Die Orden und Ehrenzeichen des Koenigreichs Preussen, page 57. Have a look.

Christophe

[Wild Card]

Example with one pin on the obverse.

[Guest Rick Research]

So basically the enamel "ribbon" is slipped around, pegged in at the hinge, and then is held on by its own friction-- sort of like a metal and enamel rubber band?

[Wild Card]

Example with four pins on the reverse

[Wild Card]

So basically the enamel "ribbon" is slipped around, pegged in at the hinge, and then is held on by its own friction-- sort of like a metal and enamel rubber band?

Now we're getting there. Christophe, great example. This, I think, is exactly what the example at the top of the page should look like.

[Mike Dwyer]

Please excuse my total ignorance here, but I don't believe I've ever seen this enamel ribbon on a medal before. What is it's purpose?

[Guest Rick Research]

It may be a gross oversimplification of this exotica, but to my dim understanding the basic issue was that when a recipient had BOTH grades, two sashes could not, physically, be worn.

The badges were therefore combined to show that both were held. The ones we are seeing seem to show as a general (if one can use that referring to mere handfuls) practice, that the grade bearing swords (usually "on ring" from lower classes-- a particularly WEIRD and POINTLESS Prussian over-fussiness, since said Orders with Xs remained in wear anyway) is the one "hinged" with the same grade Order which did NOT have swords.

In the case of the star in #s 10 and 12, since both matching grades were peacetime, the senior Order (Red Eagle) was worn with the junior Order (Crown) as the "rubber band."

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Thanks guys, it was nice to see how an original is constructed. To the unitiated you see very very nice enamel work and lettering. Whoever buys things like this will argue they MUST be good because they are so very nice, but, not as nice AS the original.