Soviet Excellent Submariner Badge

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

dear experts,

I have this Submariner Badge in my modest collection. Please can you helpt me with the exact identification - version & period - and if that badge might be authentic. I assume, that the piece is from the 1950s .

Red enamel is very fine, screwplate is unmarked, the relief at the rv. is not sharp and not deep and the piece is rather light in weight.

There is some verdigris at the av. and rv.

Many thanks in advance

Christian

Excellent Submariner Badge, av.:

[Christian Zulus]

Excellent Submariner Badge, av. (det.):

[Christian Zulus]

Excellent Submariner Badge, av. (det.):

[Christian Zulus]

Excellent Submariner Badge, rv.:

[Stogieman]

Try a look at collectrussia.com under badges, best soldier type. Igor has an example posted with very large, clear photos that you could compare yours to.

[Alfred]

There are many different variants of these bages. The pictures are not very clear. Expecially you can?t see the screwpost.

But I think both (sniper and submariner) are fakes. The screwpost tip looks very sharp and unused.

I will post pictures of fakes later.

regards

Andras

[NavyFCO]

In the mid 1990s they were churning out near perfect fakes of these badges. In fact, I had a hard time telling real from fake on the markets, even with Russian collectors helping me to identify them! So, I always stayed away... I can't help you with these, but that's just an interesting point.

Dave

[Christian Zulus]

Try a look at collectrussia.com under badges, best soldier type. Igor has an example posted with very large, clear photos that you could compare yours to.

Dear Stogieman,

many thanks for your advice .

I studied the "Excellent Badges" at Igor's site and there are SO many different versions, that it is hard to see a clear line. He also presents badges with screwplates, that have NO marks at all. Also is the rv. at some badges almost as flat structured, as of my "Submariner-Badge".

"Excellent Badges" seem to be a world of their one

Best regards

Christian

[Ed_Haynes]

"Excellent Badges" seem to be a world of their one

And, from all that I have seen, it is a very confusing and dangerous world. One better avoided, perhaps?

When even those whose expertise is reliable can't be sure, run away!!

[Christian Zulus]

There are many different variants of these bages. The pictures are not very clear. Expecially you can?t see the screwpost.

But I think both (sniper and submariner) are fakes. The screwpost tip looks very sharp and unused.

I will post pictures of fakes later.

regards

Andras

Dear Andreas,

many thanks for your expertise .

Yes, the tip of the screwpost of the "Submariner-Badge" IS sharp and unused. The one of the "Sniper-Badge" is more round.

I purchased the two badges in 1994 at a dealer in Vienna, who sold me in that year two fakes:

- RB screwback - a nice looking, but casted fake .

- Nachimov-Medal - strucked high-end fake, but too thick and the portrait of Admiral Nachimov was too flat (nose-section!) .

For both faked awards I paid in 1994 USD 190,- for each . I never got the money back and the dealer went bancrupt.

For the two "Excellent-Badges" I paid in 1994 USD 40,- for each.

Due to the fact, that I was never 100 % sure about the items of that special dealer, I did the MISTAKE OF MY LIFE as a collector of Soviet Awards :

In 1995 a bought at that dealer a "Silver-Head-Lenin" s/n. 1401 with orders booklet (the Lenin was the only order listed in the booklet) for USD 1000,-. The market value today would be at least 12 times more .

In 1995 I knew nothing about the existence of the early and rare Silver-Head-variation, the colour of the gold was far too yellow in comparison to my other suspended Lenin and the photograph of the recipient was torne out (I hate this, because I dislike imperfect orders booklets). I had been completly unsure about the authenticy of the odd looking Lenin.

So I went back to the dealer and traded the "Silver-Head-Lenin" for two unissued and fresh from the stock of a Military District Motherlands - 3cl s/n. 128584 & 2cl s/n. 2213 - with an genuine orders booklet, but faked entries. O.K., I have now at least another Motherland 2cl, which is 100 % genuine and authentic, despite the fact, that he was unissued. At least the invested USD 1000,- promoted to USD 1500,- (recent value of the 2 Motherlands) .

The sad fact was, that I found years later out, that the suspicious Lenin was the Silver-Head-Varition and as far, as I can say now also 100 % authentic and genuine .

I attached two photographs showing the "Silver-Head-Lenin":

- attached to a fantasy-jacket of a kolchos-chief in the late 1940s with other approbriate decorations

- a closer look to the "Silver-Head-Lenin".

Sorry, I have no better photographs and in 1995 the digital camera was not invented .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

SILVER HEAD LENIN, s/n. 1401:

[Christian Zulus]

In the mid 1990s they were churning out near perfect fakes of these badges. In fact, I had a hard time telling real from fake on the markets, even with Russian collectors helping me to identify them! So, I always stayed away... I can't help you with these, but that's just an interesting point.

Dave

Dear Dave,

wise words .

I bought the two badges in january 1994 and I think these badges came in 1992/93 via Kiev & Hungary to Vienna. Also the faked RB screwback and the faked Nachimov-Medal I bought at that time at the same dealer, as I mentioned in another posting at this thread.

So, the faked Soviet awards came very, very early at the Western markets. I think, well made fakes appeared almost at the same time, as the first flood of Soviet awards came to Budapest, Vienna and Berlin.

Besides the two badges in question, I stayed away from collecting GPW-"Excellent Badges". Now these decorations are so expensive, that you have to invest a small fortune to get a rather complete collection .

On the other side, it is a pity for us collectors, that these interesting items are such an unsave "investment".

Hasn't been a reference book - in Russian language - published about these badges ?

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

And, from all that I have seen, it is a very confusing and dangerous world. One better avoided, perhaps?

When even those whose expertise is reliable can't be sure, run away!!

Dear Ed,

as phalerists we should not run away, but try to do some research .

But I think, that might be only possible for experts in Russia with access to the great museums.

What might make me a little bit sure about my "Excellent Submariner Badge" is the fact, that the quality of the enamel is really very, very good and that verdigris is a sign for age. A badge, that might have been forged in 1993 would not have had verdigris in 1995, I think, but I am not a metallurgical expert .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

the av. and quality of enamel of my "Submariner" in question is rather ident to the one at that website for "Excellent Badges": http://www.znakisssr.h15.ru/pod.htm - also the fixing of the screwpost.

BUT what is missing, is the clear and deep relief at the rv. .

So it might be either a fake, or a rather "cheap" produced version of the 1950s ?

Best regards

Christian

[Lapa]

Gentlemen,

the av. and quality of enamel of my "Submariner" in question is rather ident to the one at that website for "Excellent Badges": <a href="http://www.znakisssr.h15.ru/pod.htm" target="_blank">http://www.znakisssr.h15.ru/pod.htm</a> - also the fixing of the screwpost.

BUT what is missing, is the clear and deep relief at the rv. .

So it might be either a fake, or a rather "cheap" produced version of the 1950s ?

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

Here also, some clear, good quality pictures would go a long way helping to assess your beauty

Marc

Edited March 15, 2008 by Lapa

[Christian Zulus]

Here also, some clear, good quality pictures would go a long way helping to assess your beauty

Dear Marc,

o.k., again I will try with my mobile-phone-camera ...

As I already mentioned, that badge come to the West BEFORE the big wave of fakes arraived at the collectors market.

Do you have some more links to Russian websites, where some genuine Excellence Badges can bee seen ?

Best regards

Christian

[Belaruski]

I think in regard t this Christian, so long as you're happy that you didn't pay too much for it, it's ok!

I remember someone here who found out that their Nevsky sat in a locked safe was a fake, which must be painful.

These badges are very nice, I used to have quite a set of them, but I was always happy with my high quality copy of the Submariner badge, because I could never afford a real ne, and even then it may turn out to be not so real after all.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Belaruski,

I paid about EUR 30,- each for them in the 1990s .

Best regards

Christian

I think in regard t this Christian, so long as you're happy that you didn't pay too much for it, it's ok!

I remember someone here who found out that their Nevsky sat in a locked safe was a fake, which must be painful.

These badges are very nice, I used to have quite a set of them, but I was always happy with my high quality copy of the Submariner badge, because I could never afford a real ne, and even then it may turn out to be not so real after all.