Soviet Red Banner of Labour, Type 2 / Version 1

[Christian Zulus]

Red Banner of Labour, Type 2 / Version 1

Gentlemen,

in spring 1994 I bought in Vienna a RBL screwback. My dealer had several to choose for EUR 150,- and I took the order with the most perfect enamel - no chips & bright colour. MONDVOR mintmark and the maker's mark is a "b".

Years later I noticed, that I had a type 2 / version 1, but with a s/n. 8660, which would be more matching to type 2 / version 2.

Dimitry Markov offers now at his website an ident RBL T2/V1 with another rather high s/n. 8379 - despite a chip at the red star of that order, Dimitry asks USD 5.800,- for that item: http://www.russian-medals.net/ .

According to PMD's "Red Bible" such high s/n. should not occour at the version 1 of the RBL T2-screwback.

Gentlemen, what's your opinion about it ?

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Sideviews of RBL T2/V1 s/n. 8660

Edited February 3, 2008 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

Screwplate of RBL T2/V1 s/n. 8660

[Eric Gaumann]

Better focus on the reverse would help a lot.

Better lighting would help as well as the rivets seem to be a different color.

I don't see any matches at the Mondvor site so that's not good.

[Lapa]

Christian,

With such photos, anyone can really think whatever they like.

Please post some clear, sharp, hi-res scans (or photos), then we'll be able to say something.

Marc

Edited February 4, 2008 by Lapa

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Eric,

dear Marc,

many thanks for your remarks .

Sorry for the extremly bad scans , I don't have a digital camera and I just used a friend's one, when that order was for presentation to a collectors friend out of the bank vault.

Here are some more scans of that (bad) series:

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

One more avers & screwplate + screwpost

[Christian Zulus]

I don't see any matches at the Mondvor site so that's not good.

Dear Eric,

I found an ident match at Andrew's Mondvor site (also with a almost similar s/n.):

The problem might be, that Andrew has a completly different classification, than PMD in the "Red Bible". Andrew calls the RBL I have in my collection type 2 / variant 2 / version 1.

Dimitry Markov has an ident one on his website, as I already noted and Igor offers for USD 11.000,- an ident item, but a r.i. order with low s/n.: http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=18389

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

High end fakes of RBL-screwbacks

Gentlemen,

as I told, I bought that RBL-screwback in spring 1994 in Vienna.

At that time, the 3 main dealers in Vienna (who had a very strong cooperation among each other) purchased their items at the town of Uzhgorod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzhhorod close to the Hungarian border. So almost 100 % of my Soviet collection went via Ukraine to Vienna.

Due to the fact, that my dealer had several RBL-screwbacks to choose from, I guess, that my order might have come to Vienna in 1993 or even 1992 (EUR 150,- had been quite a lot of money for a Soviet order at that time ... ).

There had been high end fakes at that time in the early 1990s. I myself wasted two times EUR 150,- for a nice, but casted RB-screwback and for a strucked Nachimov medal. Years later, I dedected, that these two items had been very typical fakes: Despite the genuine enamel, the RB was clearly casted and the Nakhimov was far too thick and Nachimov's nose lacked profile. Both items looked like fresh from the mint, what was true in a certain meaning .

My theory about high end fakes in the early 1990s:

The well known manufactories of the forgers in the Baltics wanted to make easy money.

It is rather easy to cast a RB-screwback and to put real enamel on it.

It is rather easy to struck a Nakhimov medal.

For both of them the retail price in Vienna was at that time about EUR 150,-. So I guess, that the forger in the Baltics might have got something about EUR 30,- for a faked RB-screwback or a faked Nakhimov. EUR 30,- had been a lot of money in the early 1990s in the new states of the former Soviet Union.

The retail price for a RBL-screwback had been at those times also EUR 150,-.

My question is: Why should have Mr. forger XYZ in the Baltics invested much more time and craftmanship (I think, it's a relationship of 10:1) into making a faked RBL-screwback, if he gets the some money for a easy done RB or Nakhimov medal ?

I guess, that the large scale forging of the RBL-screwbacks started when the prices for these items went beyond a RB or Nakhimov medal - just my theory from the viewpoint of a business man.

Best regards

Christian

[Lapa]

Christian,

The Russians often say that there is no point in tryng to understand a faker's logic, as there is none.

Marc

[Christian Zulus]

Fakes of the 1990s

The Russians often say that there is no point in tryng to understand a faker's logic, as there is none.

Dear Marc,

at least, our fakers wouldn't be idiots by working 10 times longer for the same amount of money . The people in the Baltics are very much business oriented ....

I just checked Paul McDaniel in the "Red Bible", what he writes about faked RBLs T2. The "Red Bible" was published in 1997.

PMD writes on page 158, that the screwback RBLs had been always faked by using 2 RBL T4 of the early versions, which were put together, faked rivets, screwpost and a too large MONDVOR mintmark (+ faked patina) were added. PMD says, that such fakes are easily detactable by a side view, where you can see the 2 put together RBLs and by the too large MONDVOR mintmark.

Please have a look at the side view scans of my RBL and at the size and form of my MONDVOR mintmark - there is everything correct . Also the rivets are real and there is no faked patina at the rv.

It is exactly the version (also with matching s/n.!) shown at Andrew's http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showuser=1193 Mondvor website:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=239103

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

RBL s/n. 8660 awarded during the GPW

Gentlemen,

I just checked Anatoly Kutsenko's book again and he list the following dates of awarded RBLs:

s/n. 8031 - 28.06.1941

s/n. 9030 - 19.01.1942

So the s/n. 8660 should have been awarded in the second half of 1941 - just during the first months of the GPW .

Paul McDaniel mentiones also the maker's mark "b" - as at my item - for the RBL T2 in his "Red Bible".

A bit more than 20.000 RBL T2 screwbacks had been awarded - most of them during the GPW.

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Marc, my RBL T2 is almost ident to your RBL T2 s/n. 7706 http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=228673

[Lapa]

RBL s/n. 8660 awarded during the GPW

Gentlemen,

I just checked Anatoly Kutsenko's book again and he list the following dates of awarded RBLs:

s/n. 8031 - 28.06.1941

s/n. 9030 - 19.01.1942

So the s/n. 8660 should have been awarded in the second half of 1941 - just during the first months of the GPW .

Paul McDaniel mentiones also the maker's mark "b" - as at my item - for the RBL T2 in his "Red Bible".

A bit more than 20.000 RBL T2 screwbacks had been awarded - most of them during the GPW.

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Marc, my RBL T2 is almost ident to your RBL T2 s/n. 7706 http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=228673

Christian,

You lost me there with your several few posts. Are you making both the questions and the answers?

I guess you posted pics of your order to get the opinions of other collectors. As it is, I (for one) cannot tell anything from the pics you posted due to them being grossl out of focus. That is the only thing that I can tell so far given the material shown.

Marc

[Christian Zulus]

Are you making both the questions and the answers?

Dear Marc,

somehow - yes .

If I find something, which helps the discussion and the topic, I post it . I think, that's the correct way, how to deal with a topic.

Sorry again for the extremly bad scans .

O.K., the pics are so bad, that you (and nobody else) can't give any (serious) expertise ...

Who knows, maybe my RBL is made of plastic and I am a complete lunatic .

Given the fact, that I really bought my RBL in spring 1994, that I have good eyes & a clear mind and that I am somehow an experienced collector of Soviet stuff, what's your frank opinion - not expertise! - about the RBL T2/V1 s/n. 8660 ?

Many thanks in advance .

Best regards

Christian

[Lapa]

Dear Marc,

somehow - yes .

If I find something, which helps the discussion and the topic, I post it . I think, that's the correct way, how to deal with a topic.

Sorry again for the extremly bad scans .

O.K., the pics are so bad, that you (and nobody else) can't give any (serious) expertise ...

Who knows, maybe my RBL is made of plastic and I am a complete lunatic .

Given the fact, that I really bought my RBL in spring 1994, that I have good eyes & a clear mind and that I am somehow an experienced collector of Soviet stuff, what's your frank opinion - not expertise! - about the RBL T2/V1 s/n. 8660 ?

Many thanks in advance .

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

Ok, so, since we are discussing in general terms and not so specifically about the piece you own, 8660 is 46 higher than the currently highest known specimen of this type/variation. By the way, I have long ago given up on McDaniel's classification, which I consider to be by now largely outdated. I use instead the Mondvor classification, which is much more correct, precise and accurate.

So, according to that classification, your order is a Type 2 Variation 2 Subvariation 1, with an interval range of 6462 to 8614 (mine fits nicely in this range). As I mentioned above, is is a mere 46 higher than the current highest known SN; although the next variation (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark) begins at 8637, I tend to think that there might have been some overlap in the use of the mintmark punches (it happened for some other orders). I personally think that yours might be the currently highest know SN for T2V2S1.

Marc

[Christian Zulus]

Andrew's classification - language problem

Dear Marc,

many thanks for your opinion .

I have long ago given up on McDaniel's classification, which I consider to be by now largely outdated. I use instead the Mondvor classification, which is much more correct, precise and accurate.

That's what I also guessed!

The fact is, that PMD made his classification in 1996/97 - almost 12 years ago - and there had been a lot of phaleristic research in the time between.

The problem among the non-Russian speakers in the collectors community is, that almost the whole Mondvor website is in cyrillic Russian . Is there a possiblity to get Andrew's classification in English language ?

Does Igor http://www.collectrussia.com/ use Andrew's or PMD's classification ?

Best regards

Christian

[Lapa]

Christian,

Andrew's classification - language problem

...The problem among the non-Russian speakers in the collectors community is, that almost the whole Mondvor website is in cyrillic Russian . Is there a possiblity to get Andrew's classification in English language ?

It is a problem without being really a problem. If you go through the pages carefully, even if you do not read Russian, you can still figure out the types, the varieties and the sub varieties, as well as their respective serial number ranges. I agree it requires a little bit of attention, but one can do it without too much of a problem.

I am sure that Andrew's is all for having his site also available in English, provided he gets some help to translate the mountain of information that is on the original site

Does Igor http://www.collectrussia.com/ use Andrew's or PMD's classification ?

It seems to me that Igor (and others) still use PMD classification (please show me a PMD T2 Order of Lenin ), but also use additional classifications (Durov, etc) when it brings them some sort of advantage (a Veeeeeeeeeeeeeery rare sub-sub-sub variety...).

Marc

[Ferdinand]

Andrew started translating his site into English, but at the moment there are only a few pages available:

http://mondvor.topcities.com

[Christian Zulus]

Classification of Soviet Awards

It is a problem without being really a problem. If you go through the pages carefully, even if you do not read Russian, you can still figure out the types, the varieties and the sub varieties, as well as their respective serial number ranges.

Dear Marc,

you are right: It's not really THAT problem .

What might be the correct English translation of Andrew's classification categories:

Type - Variation - Sub-Variation ?

(Maybe: T / V / sV ?)

Does Andrew work with only 3 categories or are there some Sub-Sub-Variations possible ?

Best regards

Christian

BTW: So I will have to re-classify my collection .

[Lapa]

Classification of Soviet Awards

Dear Marc,

you are right: It's not really THAT problem .

What might be the correct English translation of Andrew's classification categories:

Type - Variation - Sub-Variation ?

(Maybe: T / V / sV ?)

Does Andrew work with only 3 categories or are there some Sub-Sub-Variations possible ?

Best regards

Christian

BTW: So I will have to re-classify my collection .

Christian,

So far, Andrey has been successfully using a 3-level system: Type (Тип) - Variety (Вариант) - Subvariety (Разновидность).

I already (long-ago...) re-classify my collection, and I exclusively use that system now.

Marc

[Ferdinand]

Andrew has Types, Variations, Sub-Variations and Sub-Sub-Variations. A Type is 'tip' (Тип), a Variation a 'variant' (Вариант), a Sub-Variation is a 'Raznovidnost' (Разновидность) and Sub-Sub-Variation are lettered, not numbered, after the Sub-Variation.

So, for example, an Order of Lenin type 5, Variation 1, Sub-Variation 2, Sub-Sub-Variation 1 is a Tip 5, Variant 1, Raznovidnost 2a.

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, this is a marvelous site and of much use, I am sure, for the Russian speaking collectors. For others, it is of very limited utility until some better online translation systems emerge.

But then, as has been discussed on other threads, the emerging two-tier structure in Soviet ODM collecting is obvious in other areas as well.

I am happy with The Red Bible's classification scheme, with all its flaws.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Marc,

dear Auke,

many thanks for the informations .

What might be the very exact translation of 'Raznovidnost' (Разновидность) ?

Does Andrew exactly define, what's a:

- Tip

- Variant

- Raznovidnost

- Raznovidnost + Letter

I guess, that among the same "Tip" the avers of the order or medal has to be ident ?

Among the same "Tip" & "Variant" the avers and (roughly) the revers has to be ident ?

Best regards

Christian

Andrew has Types, Variations, Sub-Variations and Sub-Sub-Variations. A Type is 'tip' (Тип), a Variation a 'variant' (Вариант), a Sub-Variation is a 'Raznovidnost' (Разновидность) and Sub-Sub-Variation are lettered, not numbered, after the Sub-Variation.

So, for example, an Order of Lenin type 5, Variation 1, Sub-Variation 2, Sub-Sub-Variation 1 is a Tip 5, Variant 1, Raznovidnost 2a.

[Ferdinand]

Ed, as Marc wrote, if you go through the pages carefully, you can still figure out the classification and the serial number ranges. It requires a bit of attention, but it is definately doable. You can also use babelfish.altavista.com to translate the pages. The translations will be clumsy, but understandable.

Christian, 'Raznovidnost' can be literally translated as variety, diversity or difference.

Andrew doesn't give an explanation as to what a Tip, Variant or Raznovidnost exactly is. I have to go now, I can give a more detailed explanation about the differences between these later.

[Christian Zulus]

Christian, 'Raznovidnost' can be literally translated as variety, diversity or difference.

Andrew doesn't give an explanation as to what a Tip, Variant or Raznovidnost exactly is. I have to go now, I can give a more detailed explanation about the differences between these later.

Dear Auke,

many thanks for your explaination .

Best regards

Christian