Soviet Theories Anyone?

[NavyFCO]

Here's a citation I received for a Red Banner in my collection today. Anyone want to venture a guess as to where this fellow shot down these aircraft?

Dave

[Guest Rick Research]

Your Sinister Minion??? has been in the Double-Locked Room AGAIN!!!!!

Why, ANYONE can see this was for shooting down them danged Protivniki. Scum of the earth, them Protivniks. Mind you, ONE for a Red Banner when very expensive rockets were involved... would make a WW2 AAA guy laugh sardonically.

and, oh yeah

[Bob Hunter]

Help my wretched jogurfee if you please, Rickee, izzat where the planes were shot down???

[Dudeman]

Good morning Vietnam! And written up by a 3-star general...

[Guest Rick Research]

Wonder if it was the same unit Hanoi Jane pranced with?

But seriously -- I wonder if it would be possible to match American aircraft lost to that period for an exact match, with name(s) and unit/aircraft type?

Or was this yet another in the long international tradition of inflated claims that were not actually confirmed?

This'll be one humdinger for the full story!

[Ed_Haynes]

Can someone help the non-readers of Russian here, please. The hints, and half-jokes, and knowing winks are nice, and cute, but some concrete information would be a lot more helpful and "gentlemanly".

Edited May 16, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Guest Rick Research]

Aw, Dave's just offering up a teaser on the Fresh In stuff (I have THREE sets so ready yourselves for Epic Adventures! ) and All Shall Be Revealed in the REAL thread showing whatever else he's hiding from us on this.

Simply put, our 26 year old Comrade Senior Lieutenant Nikolai Andreevich Lyashenko of Ist AA Rocket Battalion of 564th AA Rocket Regiment is creditted in August 1970 with having shot down one "enemy" aircraft and driven off another during 4 attacks by those pesky "opponents."

Nary a peep, even in this secret, file citation, of who and where.

But weeeeeee know who was doing what to whom and where that particular month of the 20th century, ooooooo yes.

Did you know there is no word for "fun" in Russian?

[Bob Hunter]

Quoting a highly placed forum source speaking on condition of anonymity, ...the citation is believed to refer to the downing of U.S. aircraft, that's U dot S dot..."

[Ed_Haynes]

Suspected as much. Very very interesting.

Await the full revelation of secrets.

[Dave Danner]

Wonder if it was the same unit Hanoi Jane pranced with?

But seriously -- I wonder if it would be possible to match American aircraft lost to that period for an exact match, with name(s) and unit/aircraft type?

Or was this yet another in the long international tradition of inflated claims that were not actually confirmed?

This'll be one humdinger for the full story!

Aw, Dave's just offering up a teaser on the Fresh In stuff (I have THREE sets so ready yourselves for Epic Adventures! ) and All Shall Be Revealed in the REAL thread showing whatever else he's hiding from us on this.

Simply put, our 26 year old Comrade Senior Lieutenant Nikolai Andreevich Lyashenko of Ist AA Rocket Battalion of 564th AA Rocket Regiment is creditted in August 1970 with having shot down one "enemy" aircraft and driven off another during 4 attacks by those pesky "opponents."

Nary a peep, even in this secret, file citation, of who and where.

But weeeeeee know who was doing what to whom and where that particular month of the 20th century, ooooooo yes.

Did you know there is no word for "fun" in Russian?

Chris Hobson, Vietnam Air Losses: United States Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps Fixed-Wing Aircraft Losses in Southeast Asia, 1961?1973 (2001) catalogues U.S. aircraft losses.

For what it's worth, however, I would note that Vietnam was not the only place to find Soviet SAMs in that time frame. Three Soviet Voiska PVO brigades deployed to Egypt in March 1970 during the later stages of the War of Attrition.

A Soviet SA-3 battery hit an IAF Phantom in early August, but the pilot managed to bring the damaged plane home. Two other aircraft, a Dassault Mirage IIICJ and an F-4E Phantom II, were shot down by AAA or SAMs on 3 August, but it is unclear whether these were Egyptian- or Soviet-manned batteries. The War of Attrition more or less officially ended on August 4, and there were no other losses to AAA/SAMs that month.

[Guest Rick Research]

My brain must be turning to mush! I don't REMEMBER there being a shooting war in the Mideast in August 1970 BUT with the specific data Dave has provided...

I think we have a winnah! MOVE that action half a world away!

and cleared up "whether these were Egyptian- or Soviet-manned batteries."

Kudos to Dave D!!!

[SWE Erik]

Hi!

Does anyone know if the conflict centering on the Damanskij island in the Ussuri river between China and the Soviet union continued into 1970? Could the order have been awarded as part of the fighting here?

/Erik

[NavyFCO]

Dave-

WOW! Thanks for that info!

I actually have no more information on this citation than what's there. Interesting is the reverse as well, since it was bottom-lined by none other than Marshal of the Soviet Union Batitskii... So he was recommended for the award by a General Colonel, and then approved by a Marshal of the Soviet Union. Rather high level, I think!

Unfortunately, there's not much more to add than this. I have the award that was a single eBay pickup, and now his award card and citation.

Still pretty cool, I think!

Dave

[NavyFCO]

And here's a scan of the Marshal's name and signature....

[Guest Rick Research]

ACTION on 3 August...

recommendation typed on 10 August...

APPROVED on 11 August

NEW WORLD RECORD, THAT IS!!!!!!!

So ... that one going to be a KEEPER?

[Dudeman]

At second glance, this may be for the middle east. The citation mentions the ZSU-23-4 which is a tracked vehicle AA gun. If it were a ZU 23-4 (without the "S" for "samokhodnaya" or self-propelled), it would be more likely to be in SE Asia manned by Russian advisors.

Does anyone know if ZSU 23-4 (the "tank-looking" version, versus the 4-barrelled ground mount) was in SE Asia?

[NavyFCO]

Just found a great article online that includes a large portion about the Egyptian air defenses against the IAF during the 1969-70 fighting. It seems that the Egyptians were basically getting their proverbial "arses handed to them" and that the USSR came to their rescue - at the right time, and right place - turning the tide of IAF ventures into Egyptian territory. Here's an excerpt from the article:

"Then, in March and April 1970, the Soviet Union responded to the IAF?s deep attacks by rebuilding Egyptian defenses. The Soviets began delivery of the SA-3 SAM, which had a much better low-altitude capability than the SA-2, and the improved MiG-21MF Fishbed J flown by Soviet pilots. By the end of June, the Soviets had 120 MiG-21s and 55 SA-3 batteries manned by Soviet troops stationed in Egypt. Israel, choosing to avoid conflict with a superpower, restricted its attacks to the Suez Canal region. The Egyptians and their Soviet allies began pushing the defensive belt of SAMs and AAA towards the Suez Canal. As the defenses strengthened, IAF losses mounted. A pivotal period began on 1 July, with estimates of IAF losses to the Egyptian integrated defense system ranging between seven and 20 aircraft during the subsequent five

weeks until the cease-fire on 7 August.

"By the end of the War of Attrition, the IAF had flown against all of the defensive systems it would face three years later in the Yom Kippur War. Even the SA-6 made an appearance just before the cease-fire, shooting down an F-4 on 3 August 1970. The combination of radar-guided SAMs, manportable SA-7s, and radar-directed AAA such as the ZSU-23-4 made the airspace over the Suez Canal especially deadly for attacking aircraft, as indicated by the IAF?s sharply increased loss rate during the last weeks of the conflict."

The article can be found at: http://aupress.au.af.mil/CADRE_Papers/PDF_Bin/carter.pdf

I don't know if this fellow had an SA-6 battery together with his AA defense guns, but it would make sense that being a Soviet advisor he might well have been in charge of a mixed battery and thus have been responsible for the F-4 shoot down on 3 August. That would also explain the breaking-of-the-speed-of-light speed at which the award was approved - the proof of the first successful combat use of the SA-6!

WOW - Just goes to show what you can find from research!

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Awesome, absolutely awesome. And, to me at least, far more interesting than a Vietnam award.

[Guest Rick Research]

Actually, General Oleg Sarin's and Colonel Lev Dvoretsky's 1996 "Alien Wars: The Soviet Union's Aggressions Against the World, 1919 to 1989" puts the final confirmation on Dave Danner's identification.

Pages 121-123 report the shipment of entirely SOVIET M125 "Nikolaev" (SAM-3) battalions into Egypt "disguised" as "civilian sportsmen" and under the command of a General Alexei Smirnov. These Soviet troops fought in insignia-less Egyptian uniforms.

The final clincher is-- and EXPLANATION for this on the spot award is...

that Marshal Pavel Batinsky, Commander in Chief of Air Defense Forces of the USSR was personally present in Egypt in 1970 leading the Soviet military mission and overseeing the crucial ground to air defenses.

Congratulations to Navy Dave and further Kudos to Army Dave!

Now, who would like to "clarify" to the IDF who personally shot down their pilots?

[cosinus]

some photos...

[cosinus]

...

[cosinus]

...and the last one...

[Guest Rick Research]

I am so glad we are friends now. THOSE days were not good!!! "History" is always better being READ about rather than LIVED through!!!!

[cosinus]

[NavyFCO]

Wow! Thanks!!!

I wonder if one of those guys was our dear Comrade.... Wow again!

Dave