Why erase the name on a Defence Medal?

[Tony]

Hello all,

I bought this medal group recently and after collecting them from the post office I noticed the Defence Medal is the solid silver type and also that at some point over the last 60 years it has had the name of the original recipient erased.

I know some old soldiers who have maybe lost a medal or pawned it may buy another and remove the naming, other than that I don't see the point of erasing a Defence Medal, it's not as if there's any financial gain for the crims out there.

What puzzles me is why a silver medal has been erased instead of using a standard unnamed cupro nickel medal or even an unnamed silver one.

It's a Brit group which was bought in Australia. Did Australia issue silver Defence medals or could this be a group that originally went from England to Canada, then Australia? The original recipient could even have moved overseas after WWII and thought he was due the medal, not wanting all the hassle of applying maybe he just bought one and filed the name off.

Any thoughts?

Tony

[Tony]

The skimming is probably more visible in this photo.

Tony

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think Vets have/had less access to medals than collectors.

could be plenty of reasons, too many to guess. Maybe he lost it and bought one at random in a junk shop. or knew he was entitled to it, but had moved to Australia and bought it in a pawn shop tio complete his rack.

A collector can pick and choose, an old codger living in Walamaloo doing animal husbandry for kangaroos may have had less choice ;-)

[Guest Darrell]

OR ... a previous collector "completed" the group for you.

[peter monahan]

OR ... a previous collector "completed" the group for you.

It is certainly an offence to sell one's medals whilst still serving and in some jurisdictions, I believe, even to do so at all, so the seller may have erased his name before flogging it.

It's one of those arguably victimless crimes but the United States is making noises about banning all medal sales after several cases in which ex-servicemen, or in one case a very bold civilian, bought and wore campaign and even gallantry medals to which they were not entitled.

I also recall a case from the British Army in the mid-1800s [found it while doing a law essay years ago] in which a serving sergeant had bought a second set for his No. 2 uniform and they charged the seller, a time expired private. Always figured one of them must have annoyed somebody to have that charge laid, as it can hardly have been a rare occurence, especially when medals were still sewn to tunics, not pinned on.

Or perhaps the seller was down aon his luck but ashamed to have had to sell. ?Quien sabe?

[Chris Boonzaier]

It is also possible that not only servicemen selling, but also dealers buying, erased medals. back in the time befor collecting took off, when maybe more old soldiers bought medals to replace lost/missing ones, it would have been easier to sell an unamed one....

[leigh kitchen]

And maybe he preferred a slver medal to the cupro nickel one?

[Graham Stewart]

Don't know about being skimmed but none of these medals awarded to British recipients that I've handled were named anyway and if I remember correctly no WWII medals were issued named apart from gallantry awards. I have my grandfathers Defence Medal, and he served with Durham Home Guard during WWII and it isn't named either, this is despite all members of the Home Guard had both rank and regimental numbers.

I think I once read somewhere that the War Office deemed it too expensive to name medals as they had done in WWI and so unless you get them in their original boxes with some provinence you're stumped as to whom they belonged to.

[Chris Boonzaier]

didnt australians have medals named, as did South africans?

[Kev in Deva]

The WW2 Defence Medals were never as far as I am aware officially issued named.

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

[Brian Wolfe]

The WW2 Defence Medals were never as far as I am aware officially issued named.

Kevin in Deva.

Just to clairify, India and South Africa both named their medals including the WWII Defence Medals.

Regards

Brian

[Mike Huxley]

The WW2 Defence Medals were never as far as I am aware officially issued named.

Kevin in Deva.

Tony, Kev & Graham are correct. None of British WW11 medals were named, that included all Stars and the War Medal. BBM quotes that some Stars were named to South African and Austrailian personnel. For War and Defence both were issued unnamed for all countries.

Mike

Edited May 8, 2010 by Mike Huxley

[Brian Wolfe]

Tony, Kev & Graham are correct. None of British WW11 medals were named, that included all Stars and the War Medal. BBM quotes that some Stars were named to South African and Austrailian personnel. For War and Defence both were issued unnamed for all countries.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Again for the sake of being clear, by saying "For War and Defence both were issued unnamed for all countries" you are including India and South Africa as being issued unnamed?

Regards

Brian

[Mike Huxley]

Hi Mike,

Again for the sake of being clear, by saying "For War and Defence both were issued unnamed for all countries" you are including India and South Africa as being issued unnamed?

Regards

Brian

Brian, I was wrong about the War Medal, this one was officially named to Australian and South African personnel only, however not the Defence Medal.

Cheers,

Mike

[Chris Boonzaier]

however not the Defence Medal.

Cheers,

Mike

Yes they are :-)

Am looking at an SA group right now... Defence, war and Africa service named, and obviously by the same machine.

Best

Chris

[Mike Huxley]

Yes they are :-)

Am looking at an SA group right now... Defence, war and Africa service named, and obviously by the same machine.

Best

Chris

Hmmmmmm Interesting Chris, both "BB&M" and "Medal Yearbook" state that these were not named usually?

Cheers,

Mike

[Brian Wolfe]

Hmmmmmm Interesting Chris, both "BB&M" and "Medal Yearbook" state that these were not named usually?

Cheers,

Mike

My copy of the Medal Yearbook (2004) states that the Defence Medals were generally issued unnamed. By the way Canada issued these in silver. I don't believe any other country did so.

Also the book states that, regarding the War Medal, "The medal was struck in cupro-nickel and issued unnamed, but those issued to Australian and South African personnel were officially named. The Canadian version of the medal was struck in silver." The Yearbook also fails to state that India officially named all of their medals. Ed would have jumped all over this one, were he still here.

Perhaps the later editions of the Yearbook also left out the information regarding the naming, it happens.

Regards

Brian

[Tony]

Thanks for the replies and thoughts.

I have seen named SA Defence Medals, Canadian and I've also seen Australian Defence Medals in silver.

I personally believe either the man in question moved overseas (Canada, SA, Australia, India, who knows) and acquired the extra medal because he lost his own one or felt he deserved it as he may have served in the forces in non-operational area subjected to air attack or closely threatened for only 2 years 11 months instead of the three years necessary.

It's also possible it has just been added to the group but one thing in my mind is certain, the ribbons although all original do not look like they've been mounted/worn by a proud veteran of 2 world wars, they're too clean. Mounted by a family member after his death, a collector or a dealer? We'll never know.

By the way the letter Y is still visible on the rim.

Tony

Edited May 9, 2010 by Tony

[Brian Wolfe]

Thanks for the replies and thoughts.

I have seen named SA Defence Medals, Canadian and I've also seen Australian Defence Medals in silver.

I personally believe either the man in question moved overseas (Canada, SA, Australia, India, who knows) and acquired the extra medal because he lost his own one or felt he deserved it as he may have served in the forces in non-operational area subjected to air attack or closely threatened for only 2 years 11 months instead of the three years necessary.

It's also possible it has just been added to the group but one thing in my mind is certain, the ribbons although all original do not look like they've been mounted/worn by a proud veteran of 2 world wars, they're too clean. Mounted by a family member after his death, a collector or a dealer? We'll never know.

By the way the letter Y is still visible on the rim.

Tony

Hi Tony,

It is not that uncommon for a serviceman to add a medal that he believed he earned but regulations kept it from him officially. My own father added a 1939/45 Star to his group. He served with the RCAF Bomber Command and was stationed in England. On several occasions they were straffed by German aircraft while on the base. Regulations stated that they were officially behind the enemy lines (my wording) and therefore did not qualify. Many of the fellows in the bomber groups added the Star at a later date.

I was not aware that Australia issued the Defence Medal in silver. That's the problem with only one or two reference books on a topic, there is always more to learn that was left out.

Regards

Brian

[Tony]

Brian,

I'm not sure if Australia did issue the medal in silver but I have seen one in an Australian group.

I honestly think this soldier added the medal himself, he has a Scottish name or at least after trawling through the records on ancestry it would appear to be Scottish. Canada has quite a few people who originated from Scotland plus the silver medal leads me to believe he possibly moved to Canada between the wars or after WWII.

I've been told that the group has been in the collection of a former RAAF pilot so it's possible he collected groups to airman in particular, the trio being RFA on the Star and RAF on the pair.

Who knows, maybe he moved to Australia and was somehow involved in the raid on Darwin. It's something we'll never know as I can't find any records on ancestry or the AWM site. But, my money's on him moving to Canada and believing he should have received the Defence Medal or had lost his own.

Tony

[Graham Stewart]

Tony - I think you're possibly reading too much into this group and you're probably unaware that the bulk of Britains Home Guard was made up of WWI Veterans(remember "Dads Army" - "they don't like it up em you know"). In my honest opinion you're possibly simply looking at one of these old boys who has become a member of the Home Guard and therefore entitled to the medal.

I have a lovely Northumberland Home Gaurd Majors BD blouse and trousers which are sporting a WWI pair of ribbons and he too would have been eligible for the Defence Medal. My thoughts are these medals probably made their way overseas either post-1950/60's when thousands migrated to Australia or a collector bought them.

[Odin Mk 3]

The question was raised over a renamed silver Defence Medal. Being pedantic the Canadian issue was in fact 0.800 fine silver and as such has a slightly different appearance to other silver medals such as the British War Medal. As far as I am aware the Canadians were the only ones that issued the Defence Medal in silver(ish). I also believe that these medals were issued unnamed, so if this medal was named (and then erased) it was named unofficially / privately.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Odin Mk 3

[Michael Johnson]

Correct. There were no officially named Canadian Defence Medals. Canadian Mercantile Marine War Medals were named using part of a prize money fund, but only that medal, and I believe they were engraved.

[Tony]

So, someone paid to have it done, sold it, lost it or pawned it and was probably later bought by Mr. Liddell who lost his own or thought he deserved one. Which is what I originally thought may have happened.

Chris is probably correct in saying not so many examples were available years ago so, maybe Mr. L took the first one he could find.

Tony

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris is probably correct in saying not so many examples were available years ago so, maybe Mr. L took the first one he could find.

Tony

Indeed.... I remember when I was a lad...... aaaaaaalllll those years ago....

Even in Cape Town, a huge metropolis compared to that Aussie backwater where Mr. L. lived.... there were a small hand full of dealers and something like an EK1 or Military Medal was big news.....

Nowadays Kids of my age back then can simply go online and choose whatever they want, makers marks, regiments etc. etc....

We have it so easy compared to 20 years ago... ;-)