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Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory - Present Day Market Realities

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On 9-12-2016 at 14:56, paul wood said:

Given the present moribund state of the market which makes a dodo seem positively oozing with life. He will need a miracle of titanic scale to shift much of the stuff

Paul

So much for your unmitigated disasters... :P

IMG_5901.JPG

Edited by USSR

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As With Mark Twain's premature death notice, it seems the reports were grossly exaggerated. At least the Soviet market has life.

Paul

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10 hours ago, USSR said:

So much for your unmitigated disasters... :P

IMG_5901.JPG

Gentlemen,

taking a usual buyer's premium of 20% into account, a final price of USD 16,200 is still rather moderate for an almost category 1 set - my humble opinion.

Kind regards

Christian

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Just now, Christian Zulus said:

Gentlemen,

taking a usual buyer's premium of 20% into account, a final price of USD 16,200 is still rather moderate for an almost category 1 set - my humble opinion.

Kind regards

Christian

Could be. But my point was that Paul's remark about Markov would have a hard time sellling his items for the est. price was exaggerated to say the least. Also, there was some doubt here by others whether this set would even reach the starting price. 

Btw, I placed a bid on the Kutuzov 3 set but just missed it. A real bargain IMHO.

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31 minutes ago, USSR said:

Could be. But my point was that Paul's remark about Markov would have a hard time sellling his items for the est. price was exaggerated to say the least. Also, there was some doubt here by others whether this set would even reach the starting price. 

Btw, I placed a bid on the Kutuzov 3 set but just missed it. A real bargain IMHO.

Well, it might be, that Russian collectors are spending more money at the moment. At least, here in Vienna, we faced a significant increase in Russian winter tourists ;-)

As I remember, some years ago, a category 1 set of a sniper sold for about USD 50.000,- at an auction in NYC.

Do you have informations, how the ultimate gems sold at Markov's auction, as the Suvorov 1 and other much publicated items?

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2 hours ago, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  Many years in the making, the work is now done: 

Dear slava 1stclass,

congratulations to your outstanding publication in the field of WWII Eastern Front & phaleristics. I just bought the Kindle-version on Amazon. Will you publish also a printed and bound version?

I have never seen such a precise and scientific work about Soviet phaleristics - wow :-) Your presented statistics make an end to all speculations - I didn't imagine, that so many mistakes happened and that so many 1st classes had been confered so long after WWII!

Many thanks again for your outstanding and unique scientific work!

Kind regards

Christian

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Christian,

  Thank you sincerely for your kind words.  I hope you enjoy the book.  As you will note when you read further chapters, there are many very interesting and little-known facts and statistics associated with the 2,656 Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory.  They are now brought to light for the very first time.  The 200 Order of Glory First Class award recommendations included in the book are clearly among the very best of the 1,800 to 1,900 I reviewed during its drafting.   

  At the moment, I plan to use the eBook format although I may consider a bound version (possibly paperback) in the future. 

  Have a nice weekend.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited by slava1stclass

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12 hours ago, slava1stclass said:

Christian,

  Thank you sincerely for your kind words.  I hope you enjoy the book.  As you will note when you read further chapters, there are many very interesting and little-known facts and statistics associated with the 2,656 Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory.  They are now brought to light for the very first time.  The 200 Order of Glory First Class award recommendations included in the book are clearly among the very best of the 1,800 to 1,900 I reviewed during its drafting.   

  At the moment, I plan to use the eBook format although I may consider a bound version (possibly paperback) in the future. 

  Have a nice weekend.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Dear Slava1stclass,

you write in the 2nd chapter of your book, that CIC of the "Manchurian Operation", Marshal Vasilevskiy, confered OG1s to 9 soldiers WITHOUT a decree by the Supreme Soviet. You mentioned, that he might have been entitled to do so. I am sure, he was. Vasilevsky was Stalin's most senior marshal and military leader! I guess, that Vasilevsky agreed with the Politburo, that the propaganda effect is better, to award the soldiers on the battle field, than to wait for the long procedure by Supreme Soviet. You write, that these 9 new Full Cavaliers never received their decree by the Supreme Soviet afterwards. What was their legal status? Had they been some kind of "illegal" Full Cavaliers? At least you did not include them to the 2,656. So we have only 4 new Full Cavaliers linked to the "Manchurian Operation" and not 13. Seen from an ethical viewpoint, they 9 should be included.

Kind regards

Christian

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59 minutes ago, Christian Zulus said:

You write, that these 9 new Full Cavaliers never received their decree by the Supreme Soviet afterwards. What was their legal status? Had they been some kind of "illegal" Full Cavaliers? At least you did not include them to the 2,656. So we have only 4 new Full Cavaliers linked to the "Manchurian Operation" and not 13. Seen from an ethical viewpoint, they 9 should be included.

Kind regards

Christian

Christian,

  Thank you for your question.  Of the nine Full Cavaliers approved for the Order of Glory First Class via MSU Vasilevskiy's order of September 23, 1945, only two were for action against the Japanese.  The remaining seven were awards he approved based on those soldiers' combat action against the Germans.  All nine are included in the total Full Cavalier count of 2,656.  All nine are recognized as Full Cavaliers - that is not in question.  It's just that for some reason they were never subsequently included in an official PSS decree. 

  The other two Full Cavaliers whose OGIs were awarded for action against the Japanese were among the 437 post-war corrections.  Their initial Orders of Glory for action against the Japanese were erroneous repeat awards of an Order of Glory class they had already received.  The Presidium of the Supreme Soviet would later amend/upgrade them to the Order of Glory First Class in 1955 and 1958.  BLUF:  Only four Full Cavaliers earned their Order of Glory First Class/their Full Cavalier status fighting the Japanese.   

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited by slava1stclass

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Dear Slava1stclass,

many thanks for your prompt and clear answer!

You write in your book, that besides Great Patriotic War and Manchurian Operation, a number of OG3s had been confered for Hungary 1956 and River Amur 1960s. It seems, that the OG was only for "official" wars awarded - not for Korea, Vietnam or Egypt? I guess, for CSSR 1968, there had been to less real fighting for confering OG3s?

Kind regards

Christian

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3 minutes ago, Christian Zulus said:

Dear Slava1stclass,

many thanks for your prompt and clear answer!

You write in your book, that besides Great Patriotic War and Manchurian Operation, a number of OG3s had been confered for Hungary 1956 and River Amur 1960s. It seems, that the OG was only for "official" wars awarded - not for Korea, Vietnam or Egypt? I guess, for CSSR 1968, there had been to less real fighting for confering OG3s?

Kind regards

Christian

Christian,

  You're welcome.  There is nothing I came across in my research to confirm OGIIIs were awarded for any major post-war Soviet operation/engagement other than those referenced in my book.  While I am aware of confirmed Soviet military decorations awarded for action in the Korean War, there are no confirmed OGIII awards from that conflict of which I'm aware.  There are of course confirmed awards of decorations like the HSU and the Order of the Red Star connected with Soviet operations in Afghanistan.  

Regards,

slava1stclass

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Dear Slava1stclass,

Many thanks for your prompt answer! So it seems, that these OGIIIs had been confered only for somehow "patriotic" wars, as Hungary 1956 or Amur in the late 1960s and not for Korea, Vietnam, CSSR or Afghanistan.

Another question: Have you any numbers, how many survivors of Full Cavaliers got these special booklet, issued in 1976 or later in the 1980s, which should be part of a category 1 set? Somewhere I read, that this number is about 700 Full Cavaliers?

Kind regards

Christian

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36 minutes ago, Christian Zulus said:

Dear Slava1stclass,

Another question: Have you any numbers, how many survivors of Full Cavaliers got these special booklet, issued in 1976 or later in the 1980s, which should be part of a category 1 set? Somewhere I read, that this number is about 700 Full Cavaliers?

Kind regards

Christian

Christian,

  I can confirm that slightly over 1,700 of the Special Award Booklets for Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory were issued - either to the Full Cavaliers or to their next of kin.  There are likely more, however, the 1,700 figure represents those for which I have the actual  booklet serial number.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited by slava1stclass

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Dear Slava1stclass,

many thanks for your reply!

Is there a 3rd variant of the Special Award Booklets for Full Cavaliers in the time from 1992 on by the Russian Federation?

Was there a special chapter of the Order of Glory by RF-government from 1992 on, due to the fact, that the Supreme Soviet vanished?

As I can make out in your statistics in the book, the confering of OGI stopped recently. Is that fact also true for OGII & OGIII?

Kind regards

Christian

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10 hours ago, Christian Zulus said:

Dear Slava1stclass,

many thanks for your reply!

Is there a 3rd variant of the Special Award Booklets for Full Cavaliers in the time from 1992 on by the Russian Federation?

Was there a special chapter of the Order of Glory by RF-government from 1992 on, due to the fact, that the Supreme Soviet vanished?

As I can make out in your statistics in the book, the confering of OGI stopped recently. Is that fact also true for OGII & OGIII?

Kind regards

Christian

Christian,

  For all the questions you're asking, you're going to owe me a nice Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesauce the next time I'm in Vienna!

1) There are four known variants of the Special Award Booklet for the Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory.  I'm unaware of any version separately produced by the Russian Federation once the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.  I would assume those Orders of Glory First Class awards issued post-1991 used USSR-produced booklets that remained in stock.

2) Orders of Glory First Class authorized post-1991 were based on orders, not decrees, issued by either the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation or Ukraine. The RF, and I would assume Ukraine, also published separate laws/guidance concerning the rights and privileges granted to Full Cavaliers as well as to HSUs.

3) As noted in my book, the final Orders of Glory First Class for Great Patriotic War valor (all of which were post-war corrections of wartime administrative errors) were authorized in 1996.  Other than tracking down and presenting OGIIs and OGIIIs to those veterans who were approved for them during the war or in the immediate post-war years, i.e. 1946 and 1947, I'm unaware of any new OGII or OGIII award approvals for GPW service as was the case with OGIs.  Here is a story (in Russian) of a vet who only received his OGIII a little over one month ago - in December 2016 - 72 years after he was first approved for it:  http://www.slavcentr.kz/index.php/blogs-menu/blogs/a/8703-Orden-Slavyi-nashel-svoego-geroya.html  

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited by slava1stclass

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Gents,

  Just listed on the well-known NYC-area dealer's site.  Price:  $11,750.00. 

  He was a SU-85 self-propelled gun mechanic-driver.  His OGI citation and a rare wartime photograph of him and his fellow regimental Full Cavalier winner are included in my book.  His  buddy went MIA before Moscow approved his OGI and therefore his friend's OGI was a posthumous award.

Regards,

slava1stclass 

1049.jpg

1049 a.jpg

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Dear Slava1stclass,

many thanks for your expertise! You are welcome, but an original Apfelstrudel is never served with Vanillesauce, but with Schlag, with whipped white cream ;-) The Milchrahmstrudel is served with Vanillesauce! But an original Milchrahmstrudel, an speciality of the Wienerwald region, is served only in very few restaurants. You have to wait for about 25 minutes, due to the fact, that the Milchrahmstrudel is baked in the ofen: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milchrahmstrudel

Concerning the OGI presented above. The price is fair, no doubt! There is no wartime photograph of the recipient offered! But "excellent condition, absolutely superb" is a bit too much ;-) It is not 10/10! Just compare the condition to Gnitienko's OGI.

Kind regards

Christian

OGI.jpg

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1 hour ago, Christian Zulus said:

A copy, USSR? The Spassky-Tower and the Red Star are looking different ...

No, it's authentic and comes with a COA. Probably some distortion as a result of the bright the lighting.

Edited by USSR

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15 hours ago, USSR said:

No, it's authentic and comes with a COA. Probably some distortion as a result of the bright the lighting.

Dear USSR,

the Spassky-Tower and the Red Star on top are too narrow. Can you forward the photograph of your OGI on the COA?

If your OGI is authentic, then it looks like fresh from the stocks of the mint. Did you invest some few bucks into research?

Kind regards

Christian

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Gentlemen,

an interesting Full Cavalier, who is recorded in Slava1stclass' fantastic book "Onward to Berlin!":

"Mama Nina" - Nina Pavlovna Petrova. One of the 4 women, one of the 34 snipers (she had 122 credited kills!) and with 53 years of age, when her heroic deeds took place and becoming a Full Cavalier of the Order of Glory, one of the oldest ever :-)

Kind regards

Christian

Mama Nina.jpg

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