slava1stclass

To all: Kevin is spot on. One thing we know with certainty, however, is that historians can put a figure on the number of unarmed Bosnian Muslim boys and men massacred by the Bosnian Serbs at Srebrenica. Regards, slava1stclass

Kevin, You were getting your copy of Militaria and I was purchasing live trout, baguette, cheese and red wine. By the way, the frog legs and baked Alaska at their le Pavillon du Lac Officers' Club were to die for. Those were the days! Regards, slava1stclass

To all: As the old Serbian proverb goes: "Лепа реч и гвоздена врата отвара." I sincerely wish Herr Zulus good luck in his efforts to secure documentation that will bring definitive closure to this case. Even if the remaining research should come back negative, we can rest assured this group of orders will forever remain in the hands of a devoted collector. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: Dave captures my sentiments exactly - sentiments which I've expressed in some of the earliest posts in this thread. - Do the three Orders of Glory alleged to have been awarded to G. appear legit - yes. - Does G's Full Cavalier booklet appear legit (the Order of Glory 1st Class s/n number discrepancy aside) - yes. - Would I personally want to include this set in my own Full Cavalier collection knowing what we know (or better yet, don't know) - no. Don't take me wrong, I certainly wish Herr Zulus good luck in his search for indisputable hard evidence to clarify/justify this exceptional case. Absent such proof, however, a heavy cloud of suspicion/doubt will always hang over this set for the reasons Dave has so clearly articulated. Regards, slava1stclass

Dave, Your point is very well taken. While we all remain hopeful this will serve to explain/clarify the glaring records/serial number disconnect, unfortunately there is only so much wishful theorizing one can do in an attempt to otherwise legitimize it. Regards, slava1stclass

Herr Zulus, Unless you've assumed another person's identity, Fred has been a member of the "other" Soviet awards forum for quite some time. Here's his homepage as listed on the other forum: http://www.mobilkomaustria.com/CDA/framese...html-en,00.html He's in your own backyard. Regards, slava1stclass

Mondvor, Concur. I suggested this approach very early on in this thread. Herr Zulus has apparently ordered further research to help bring this rather unusual case to closure - hopefully for the better. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: Other than the outstanding discrepancy regarding the serial number for his Order of Glory 1st Class, I would tend to agree. All the remaining features of this Full Cavalier set appear true. In reviewing G's Special Awards Record Card, it is clear the late award of his Glory 1st was due to an earlier, erroneous double award of the Order of Glory 2nd Class. This error wasn't corrected until 29 December 1980 when the order for his Glory 1st was issued in Moscow. Just a little less than two months later - on 20 February 1981 - he was issued his Full Cavalier awards booklet (and presumably his Order of Glory 1st Class) when summoned to his local military commissariat in Kharkov. So the question then becomes one of why the serial number for the Order of Glory 1st class in his possession (and annotated in his Full Cavalier booklet) i.e., s/n 1965 differs from that recorded on his Special Awards Record Card, i.e. s/n 3646. As the majority of the critical elements of a Full Cavalier Booklet were filled out/completed in Moscow (only the recipient's personal photograph, official military commissariat stamp and date the booklet was issued were added/penned in at the local level) the error (if in fact true) occurred in Moscow. This then begs the question of how this could have occurred given his Special Awards Record Card clearly indicates his Glory 1st should have serial number 3646. Are we to assume the official government calligrapher in Moscow designated to fill out Full Cavalier Booklets somehow got it wrong? Possible, though unlikely. He/she had to be working off of some sort of official documentation when filling in G's Full Cavalier Booklet. It is possible G's Uchyotnaya Kartochka will shed more light on this. If this, too, lists his Glory 1st s/n as 3646, "We've got a problem Houston." Hope this helps. P.S. As for Full Cavalier Booklet serial numbers being listed on the Special Awards Record Card, I'll need to do some checking and will let you know. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: Considering that he wasn't especially tall and in not particularly good health, maybe they decided to make an exception and cut this guy some slack. Is this awarding in concert with the established regs for bestowing the Order of Glory? Absolutely not. Is this a classic example of the "watering down" that often occurs in a given Army's awards system at certain points in time? Absolutely. Nice example. Thank you. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: The Full Cavalier Special Awards Card may also be obtained through an archival research request. The advantage of using PMD's service in this instance rests squarely in its much quicker turn around time. If one is willing to wait, however, all the applicable research documents may be obtained through the archives. It appears Herr Zulus has opted for the archives route. Hopefully he has requested the full range of research documentation. As stated in one of my earlier posts in this thread, information contained in the archives should serve to bring closure to this case. Regards, slava1stclass

Chris, With or without "V" device? Regards, slava1stclass

To all: From one Jesuit-educated person to another, the logic of the argument is pure. They sure tained us well. Regards, slava1stclass

Sehr geehrter Herr Zulus, For a cost of $50.00, Mr. Paul McDaniel offers a service that will fax you a copy of Gnitienko's Full Cavalier Special Award Record Card. Should you so elect, you would most certainly be guaranteed speedy resolution of this case. Check out: http://www.historicalresearch.com/cavalier.html We look forward to your report on your findings. Regards, slava1stclass

Ed, Thank you for asking. My sourcing is based on material/documentation from the archives at Podolsk - the purest form of primary research. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: Now available at a well-known NYC-area dealer. This would be a textbook example of a Category 1 Full Cavalier set were it not for the fact the Order of Glory 3rd Class is a substitute for the original and the Cavalier Booklet lacks a date for when it was presented to the winner. The S/N for the Glory 1st is #11. What is even more uncommon (as noted in post # 1 above) is that the grouping also includes his Ordenskaya Knizhka. Asking Price: $13,500. Regards, slava1stclass

Ed, No problem. We're here to help one another. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: Ed is a somewhat off. The actual number of Orders of Glory 1st Class awarded is in the 2,500-2,600 range. Whereas Order of Glory 1st Class with serial number 3743 may have been the highest recorded serial number for an awarded Order of Glory 1st Class, the actual number of Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory is in the 2,500 to 2,600 range. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: More accurately it is in the 2,500-2,600 range. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: This group has been circulating for a few months now. It's interesting to note the huge jump in price since having passed through a couple of hands to its present home at a well-known NYC-area dealer. The original sales price was $750.00 (back in early March of this year). Current asking price: $1,650.00. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: A very nice shot of Colonel I.I. Shumilin seen wearing the U.S. Army Legion of Merit in the degree of Legionnaire. As this photo was taken during the height of the Cold War in 1961, it's ironic to note that he wears the American decoration as well as a decoration that appears to be from the People's Republic of China (on the very bottom of the same row). Regards, slava1stclass

To all: Not to be outdone (although he was likely very loathe to have done so judging from his expression), GEN George S. Patton, is seen with an unidentified Soviet general officer after having decorated him with the Legion of Merit in the degree of Commander and presenting him with a 3rd U.S. Army flag. Regards, slava1stclass

Photo two.

To all: It appears as if LTG William M. Simpson, CG, U.S. IX Army, decorated more Soviet general officers than many of his fellow American G.O.s. Here are two more shots. The first is a shot of him with HSU Col Gen Dmitri Svyatayev, CG, 33rd Soviet Army whom he decorated with the U.S. Legion of Merit in the degree of Commander (see post #33 above for another picture of the two). The second shows him awarding the Legion of Merit (in either the degree of Legionnaire or Officer) to Maj Gen Nicholas N. Amasov, Chief of the Political Section, 3rd Soviet Army in Braunschweig, Germany on 28 May 1945. Regards, slava1stclass

To all: A truly amazing bit of research/detective work. Check it out. Regards, slava1stclass http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?sectio...p;article=40908 New York Times October 27, 2006 pg. 8 Officer Says He Found Site Of York's Heroics In 1918 By Craig S. Smith PARIS, Oct. 23 ? An American military officer based in Germany says that he has located with some certainty the spot on which the World War I hero Sgt. Alvin C. York carried out his famous exploit in the Argonne forest of northeastern France. On Oct. 8, 1918, Sergeant York, then a corporal, crept behind enemy lines with 16 other soldiers to attack German machine gunners who were holding up an American advance. They came under fire, and Sergeant York was credited with overcoming the superior force by using sharpshooting skills he had honed during turkey shoots and squirrel hunts in the Tennessee woods. Competing camps of scholars and military historians have long debated the exact site of this legendary stand, which ended with the capture of 132 German soldiers and was immortalized in a 1941 film starring Gary Cooper. Until now, no one had found what seemed to be such striking material proof that the exploit might have taken place as described. ?We nailed it,? said Lt. Col. Douglas Mastriano, an American military intelligence officer working for NATO, who has spent six years researching the Sergeant York story using American and German military archives. The general area where the fight took place, near the village of Ch?tel-Ch?h?ry, is well known, but vague and conflicting battlefield accounts made it impossible to say exactly where it occurred. Most people involved in the hunt have agreed, however, that Sergeant York was the only one who emptied a sidearm in the narrow valley that day, and students of the issue have said that finding a concentration of empty Colt .45 cartridges would be the best proof of where he stood. Over the past year, Colonel Mastriano, his wife, Rebecca, his son Josiah and his friends Kory O?Keefe, Lt. Col. Jeff Parmer and Gary Martin spent nearly 1,000 hours walking the battlefield with metal detectors. On Oct. 14, Colonel Mastriano and Mr. O?Keefe found two .45 caliber rounds, one live and one that had been fired. They returned the next weekend and found more evidence: 19 empty .45 cartridges scattered over a 10-foot-wide area at the base of a hill, along with German and American rifle rounds. Many of the German rounds had not been fired. They found more .45 slugs 20 yards away near the remains of a German trench together with hundreds of German rifle and machine gun cartridges, many of them live rounds, and bits of gun belts and debris consistent with soldiers surrendering. The material fits closely with Sergeant York?s account, in which he described firing his rifle toward machine gunners on a hill before pulling out his Colt .45 to pick off seven German soldiers who charged him with fixed bayonets. Colonel Mastriano had the casings examined by a ballistics expert, who confirmed that they all had come from the same gun. ?I honestly never thought that we would recover the .45s and was stunned when we dug them up,? Colonel Mastriano said this week from his home in Heidelberg, Germany. ?The find means that the search for the York spot is over.?

To all: In following the arguments and counter-arguments proffered in this thread, it appears to come down to one thing, namely the Soviets had a much wider/looser definition of what "heroic" meant within the context of their society. Their definition, however, runs counter to the general sense of what "heroic" means within most West European nations and the United States. So when a famous Russian ice skater is awarded the Hero of Russia for her on-ice feats, we shouldn't be surprised. On another note, I, too am dismayed at the tone some of the sub-posts in this thread have taken. I'm happy to see the forum leadership has stepped in to address the matter. Regards, slava1stclass