François SAEZ

I don't want to sound pessimistic on your goblet for the simple fact that I am sure the goblet is right, the engraving, well I don't know and I don't pretend to know everything nor to tell people what to do or buy (it is enought difficult for my collection) but I will tell you (and everybody) that the best way to sell exotic items such silverwares is to have 0 reference available on them, then nothing to compare to. Good fakes and very good exotica fakes existed in the 60's, believe me on that Now believe or not it often more easy to detect a fake engraving made yesterday (with the best technology) than a fake or doctored engraving made in the 50's possibly with the same kind of tools and techonology used during WWII. Again, I am not saying who is right or wrong, just giving another view My best

more of my collection is http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=117254 Nothing (by choice) WWI related

Fakes started before the end of WWII, a regular HG was maybe worth not much in 1960 but anything related to a famous ace was and is.

Sorry John I was not clear "4. Are there any other known squadron awards of HGs or presentation pieces from Hitler / Goering? To my knowmedge, awards no, docs yes." I was refering to Genera swords, Formal document to RK;OL ... HG document (early) signed by Goering (in red) or Milch .../... The award is the regular one, only the doc and the fact H or G are at the ceremony makes it special. I have NEVER seen nor hear of another Ehrenpokal like your or the one on ebay Reaaders, the base of the Ehrenpokal can be found at http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/service_aw...oblet/first.htm

More specific, I don't know Some years ago a M?lder's goblet appeared on the german market, one in the UK, one on ebay US, Jacques has pics of one (granted it is maybe one of them), you have one which means: - 5 goblets or - only 2 assuming that the one offered on ebay in the one which showed in Germany and the UK In both cases, there is more than one. Please, note that I don't refer to authenticity

Several "M?lder's engraved goblets" appeared some years ago, at this time, one was even proposed on ebay for $10,000 - possibly the one shown by Jacques, no?

My opinion, only:

Then, for Paul

Well Marcus, I see no opposition to your theory with mine

Going by memory, several (5) squadrons from the 15th staffel of JG 51 had or were made of Spanish volonteers - again I can be wrong 15./JG 51 gave 1,2,3,4 and 5 Esquadrun Azul in Russia from Sept. '41 to March' 44 Probably, Spanish volonteers were found in other flying units of the LW in Russia, same as for Croatians, Romanians .................

Gracias amigo mio

Pregunta amigo mio You may help me to clear a (maybe wrong) statemement that Spanish wings made by german makers can be sold and worn only by german pilots?

My understanding for what it is worth Awards for the 1939 ceremony = 3 colors as descibed by mister Jacques After this where the confusion is for everybody (including myself), all cases are GREEN - I have seen US brings back of SC, all classes in green boxes. I also think and believe several variations (color,stamps ..........) exist depending on makers. In your logic, you must enter the attribution number parameter - How many SC in gold do you know, then how many red case do you know? * Sir, nice cases you show here

Thanks good friend

Hola, Being the owner of Schudziak'medal bar, knowing who owns his original tunic (friend of yours), may I ask you what make your opinion on this medal bar being a modern assembly. You may be totally right, but only to understand the logic, I would like to know why this bar is a modern assembly, did you have it in hand, do you know things that I don't know about it? Again, with all my respect and only to learn

Well, in post #2 it is said "Created the 12 April, 1944 (L.V.Bl., Ziff 578), the central device of the crossed swords denotes the award to Air to Ground Support Squadron flyers .... the "Schlachtflieger" Most of the men qualifying for this clasp ALREADY had a clasp ( for bomber) in silver or gold and went for upgrade only, this why you will find more of those clasps in gold or with pendant than bronze ones. To get a bronze one mainly means you join the schlachtflieger as a beginer after April 12 1944 while all the other pilots and crew kept at least the class they had before. Not sure I am clear

A medal bar of the LC has the LW four years service, the Chekz entry medal, Medalla de la Campa?a 1936-1939, Cruz roja del m?rito militar, Sufrimiento por la patria. It belonged to Obelt SChudziak, he was and observer in the Seenoflugkdo.3 hydro unit rescuing pilot and crews shot down in the Channel during battle of Britain. On 20 July 1940 he was attacked by the Hurrican of Sgt Robinson, of the famous RAF Squadron 111 (triple one), and so Schudziak was shot down exactly at 15:20h, being Schudziak MIA with three NCO of his crew and one NCO was rescued later. He served at the Spanish Civil war at the Hydors base in Mallorca, and his plane in Spain was a Heinkel He-59 , exactly the D-AROO.

TOP !!! Merci cousin

To start with, maybe interesting to read: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_badges...ments/index.htm .../... Aircrew Documents - a Research Project Some sense of the value of collecting / examining documents may be gained by exploring the outcomes of an informal research project conducted by members of the Wehrmacht Militaria Discussion Forum. In December 2000, Chris Boonzaier (Germany) requested that collectors who owned or had access to Pilot Badge documents provide the numbers and date to be found thereon. Members enthusiastically responded by sending a range of data which enabled increasingly rich and valuable discussion. The scope of Chris's initial posting was significantly expanded when Francois Saez (France) provided details of a Flugzeug - Beobachter (Pilot-Observer) Badge document, asserting its relevance to the thread thus: graduates of all categories of aircrew received documents from the RLM (Reichs Air Ministry) which were sequentially numbered .... at any given time this number represented the total number of graduates with an aircrew-related qualification since the inception of these awards in 1935. From this shared information it is clear that the number appearing on a document is not an indicator of the numbers of persons who had qualified for that particular badge up to that time, but that it represents the total of awards to all categories of aircrew. Further data and discussion led to the observation that the certificates for the Retired Pilot Badge and the Paratroop Badge bore a different numbering system. The date on the certificate is the date it was signed by the Chief of the Luftwaffe Personnel Department - this date may differ from the actual presentation or graduation day by up to 15 days. From around mid-1944, certificates ceased to be issued from the RLM and became the responsibility of training units. These documents are not numbered and may show further variations in wording and lettering styles. One also sees the emergence of field-made and typed documents. Forum contributor Mike Kenny (Australia) has generously compiled data from over ninety-five Luftwaffe documents into a spreadsheet (MS Excel format). This extremely valuable resource may be accessed by clicking on this link: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_badges...ents/LWdocs.xls From this spreadsheet one can roughly estimate the number of Luftwaffe personnel who gained a qualification from 1935 to around mid-1944. Take note of the number on the listed Flieger-Erinnerungsabzeichen (Retired Pilot Badge) document dated November 1943 .... number "403". This pointer to the rarity of a much discussed award may be invaluable to the vigilant Luftwaffe badge collector! .../...

another one

Many thanks Simon, next step is to writte them (in English or German = we need a volonteer) ) and to ask them if they still produce pilot goggles what type, even send them pics of some war models and ask them if they produce them after the war ................

same here, nerver saw 1 or 3 and my question should be, why no fake 1 or 3 ??? If rarer, they should drive more money, no? Does N&G or " NiGuRa" have a site? Can someone post the site, maybe they have a catalog and we will have surprises.

Wise words Jos The only thing I still don't get is why selling fake type II with clear lenses if almost everybody think they never exist with clear lenses = you will not sell them. Althought why produce clear ones when dark ones exist in fake (are supposed to exist). We go now to the possibility that N&G (or war subsidiaries) produced them post war (maybe even now) for an other country, for civil associations (gliders.............) we will then NOT have fake goggles but post war ones. This theory I like

Like Jos my "guts" say not for my collection (even if I do have a pair) but on the other hand everybody is saying fakes of type II and type III are all around but in fact nobody can show a fake - I mean that in fact we are obliged to deduct that some are fake because they don't match wath we know. My 2 remarks are: Why copy N&G with clear lenses when they are far less seller than "smoked" ones that everybody want? Not sure I get the logic. Even if I go with the general concensus, sometimes I wonder if we don't make a mistake by saying, they are not ok because they don't have the hinge we know (example only) - Why aving 4 type of N&G during the war and not have variation within the types? Again, it is only my opinion but in resume (for me): Type II existed, they are early war, I don't know for sure how they came packaged (if they came packaged). Now what I am not 100% sure (even if I tend to agree): Type II are said to be heavily faked (including the small book) As for the time being I never saw a warime pic with clear lenses on type II N&G - but I want to stay open mind for the time being. My advice to "beginners", for the time being ONLY go for "smoked" type II with the hinge like the ones described by Jos and shown in wartime pics.

wartime pic of type II