saschaw

The front does! It reads "1901" in the left down corner ...

Probably to shiny, yes. Oh, they are really rare, where they with or without oak leaves? Well, no more combinations than listed in OEK are possible, none with "Schwerter am Ring" and anything additional, as the swords on ring had in Baden another meaning than they had in Prussia.

"Schwerter am Ring" were awarded for military merits of NON military persons (and as well to physicians and ministers), and as far as I know only in the 1866 and 1870/71 years - none in WWI. ONE Commander Cross IInd class with swords on ring THREE Knight Crosses Ist class with swords on ring Thirteen Knight Crosses IInd class with swords on ring. Not to many, Hmm? I've yet seen some offered, but did not like them really ... Nimmergut showed one in his 2003/04 OEK which seems to be fine - this one is (if I remember correctly) in the "Wehrgeschichtl. Museum Rastatt". It's the same H. Volle shows in his book about Baden's Orders and Decorations in 1976. PS: I've none of them.

Hmm, you didn't get they're the same?! We are talking about ONE bar ...

They do match indeed. I have both the catalogue and the bar in my hands, in front of me. The picture from the catalogue got very bad on the scanner, and is not that good at all (a bit to dark). Do you have the catalogue? If so (and I hope you've got this helpful book), please compare the yellow ribbon's structure. I'm convinced it is 100% impossible to fake(!) some features ribbons get while being worked with. It IS the bar shown on the book, but that is NOT an evidence for it beeing genuine ... That is not the pin, but the "Splinte"(?) of the swords, as we can see on reverse. Someone has "worked" on the Z?hringer devices. Thanks Daniel as well for your opinion. I know what this bar has to be if original, that's why I bought it. It has been on Ebay some years ago, might have been in 2003 or in 2004, with the last device completely missing, but the swords being given to the buyer seperately. I was financially to week (and yet to small ) to buy it and passed, but know I knew I had to do it, risking to buy a expensive fake. My feeling's still not to bad, might be because it is my bar and I don't want to have a fake actually. I found by coincidence a picture of a Prussian general wearing almost(!) the same combination, but the Z?hringer without swords. Not a match, but showed me what it has to be: a general's bar.

The ribbon is not very long, and might not be genuine - but in my humble opinion not very hard to get as it uses the same ribbon as the other, much more common Bavarian long service awards. The cross for 40 years is made from silver, and partly enemalled. It is really rar, much rarer than this one. Pictures might follow, as soon as I have scanned it.

Thanks Lukasz for the adress of Nimmergut, but I had it yet, have been in contact with him for something else last year. The ribbons are indeed shiny, but the yellow ribbon as well looks more old, and the EK ribbon of course. Might old silk ribbons still be that shiny? I think it might be ...

Hard, but true - I know it as well. But were are talking about quite a long time ago when it - if it shall be a modern fake - yet existed: in 1991. I guess I will contact Mr. Nimmergut, he may know something about the bar, whose it was, or if he made it himself.

Thanks for your opinions that far ... Are you talking about bars from ca. 1915 or bars from the 1920ies?Honestly, I do not know how to recognize silk ribbons, but they are looking fine to me, and might be silk ... Hmm, hard to tell, as I don't want to destroy anything. It looks rather like silver or silvered brass. By the way, the bar it IS in my humble opinion that one that has been published on the "B?nderkatalog" in 1991, but a .... fool has removed the oaks from the Z?hringer's ribbon - the swords might still be the same. A made a picture and marked some points on the ribbons that (I guess) you could not fake with ribbons ... Opinions now?! PS: The picture is better on the catalogue itself, it got worse with scanning. Since when have ribbon bars been faked? As I know, almost noone has been interrested in them that much still some years ago, and maybe in 1991 (16 years ago), noone would have faked a ribbon bar at all?!

And to your information: the bar itself is made fom brass (or something similar, non magnetic), whereas the needle is iron ... is this a good or a bad sign? And by the way, the ribbons do, of course, not glow under "magic black light". Opinions, please, Opinions ... And the mentioned book's cover's here:

Recently, I was able to purchase this ribbon bar on Ebay.de for an insane amount of money (No, I do NOT want to talk about it! ), and today it arrived here. It is M1915 style and has: - Prussia, Iron Cross 1870 IInd class with 1897 oak leaves; - Prussia, Long Service Cross; - Prussia, War Medal 1870/71; - German Empire, South West Africa medal (steel or bronce?!); - Prussia, Centenary medal 1897; - Baden, Knight's Cross Ist or IInd class, with swords. First question, and the (for now) most important: is this a authentic 1915 bar, or isn't it? The rest won't be to difficult, and I do yet have some ideas, but first just(!), please, some opinions wheater this bar is genuine or isn't ... PS: A bar like this is on the cover of Nimmergut's "Bänderkatalog", 1991 - but has oak leaves on the swords of the Zähringer as well .

My father is (or better: we are) the seller, and the piece is as well in my humble opinion genuine, as well as the 40 year cross is ... This might be indeed possible, as all the orders and decorations offered come from an old collection of an elderly (ca. mid 80s) man who doesn't want to collect anymore and wants his things to be well sold as long as he's still alive, as his doughters are not interesset at all. Many of his things are polished, and some are even "zaponiert", whatever it means in English ... Keep looking on Ebay, there'll come up some more things.

And a little bigger:

Your demand is my command ... This freaky "Ober-Stabsarzt" wears indeed one on his breast AND one on the bar - well, why not?!

I guess he might have had a "Schnalle" which was worn under the bar, not on it ...

And it's reverse:

Yes, I'm with Heiko's opinion, but it always depends on WHAT they do look like. Recently acquired: A nicely sewn Prussian 2 place medal bar with a medal to the jubilee of the liberation of Spandau (1813-1913), very massive in real silver, and a cross for 25 years in shooting club Spandau, as well Silber, but looking very close to a Crown Order 4th class ...

In my data base - I don't know why - the bar is named with "(zuletzt Oberst) Karl Graf von Holnstein", and even the price it has once been sold for on Ebay is written there, so I guess it has yet been identified anywhere, but I don't know when, and by whom ... PS: I was definitely NOT me.

The relations are well explained on wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castell_%28Adelsgeschlecht%29 This family is of real old noble origin, dating back to 11th (sic!) century ...

That's a really great group, wow ... No real idea which family, but may it be a medal producing one?! People who produce medals also get some ... I though for just a moment to own a matching photo, but the ribbons are a little different formed, at least the Bavarian one, and the Prussian is shorter:

Ah thanks, now I see. I thought the numbers to be like in Weimar rolls, which would have been indeed strange ... Yes, they are two of his doughters. I've got some of his documents, but not the Meiningen grand cross'.

Sure we are, but Bern D made a indeed good point, hmm?! If this IS true, we shouldn't buy such Weiss crosses. I hope the soon coming book might enlighten us in this topic. A question to those who know the book and writer better: Will it also refer to the merit crosses, or just to the order?

And the second one, as well with number 32,2008 I., but for "das Fr?ulein Nelly Liman von Sanders in Constantinopel", also 20. Juni 1917:

Me too, thanks. I've got dozends of this ribbon. No pardon, I was just kidding. I have no idea where to get one, but if I'll see ... Here my two documents: First, with number 32,2008 I. for "das Fr?ulein Doris Liman von Sanders in Constantinopel", 20. Juni 1917:

Hmm, to me it looks like there have once beeen swords and the hole been "overworked" after removing them, but it is actually NEVER easy to say, and I'm not an expert on these ...