Mondvor

Many thanks Dave Now we learned an important thing. Some "crabs" with 6-digit numbers were issued. Cool! Shevchenko's unit was located in Chita region. This region is on South-Eastern part of Russia and borders with China and Mongolia.

Ed, I totally agree about "powerful and important points" made by Dave. Award's history is cool and extremely interesting thing. That's why I love it with all my soul. But I would not agree with you about "variations" and "subvariations" importance. We should not underestimate their value. Let me ask you very simple question. If you would not study small variations, "watermarks" and other things that you called "noise in manufacturing process", how would you protect yourself from fake makers? Nowadays they produce high level fakes and without a knowledge of small details of each variation you simply would not be able to recognize a fake. You can buy an order and pay for a full research but what is a reason to research a fake? If you need an example just remember screwback BH. Little study on mintmark's configuration of this variation could help you to avoid big mistake. So I think that going deeper to the structure of the awards (even to the limit that you called "electron-microscopic uniqueness") could probably help each end every of us to resist fake-makers. I think we should consolidate our forces in this direction

Dave, I think here is some kind of "apples" and "oranges" mixed together. Neither me nor other forum members didn't even mention about splitting any group for taking rare variation out of it. The only idea was that we like variations and this is it. If I find interesting variation within a group I would simply keep the whole thing. The story that you told us is awful and this person was quite stupid to break a group apart. But do not judge about Russian collectors because of that case. I know many of them and believe me that most of them are very interested in "historical" part of the award. It's kind of sad to hear from you this opinion about collectors from former USSR. Many of them are even more educated in historical part of the awards than you cam imagine. As for me, on my "scale of values" the story behind the group (or single award) is a top priority. That's why I already researched most of my groups and plan to research more. But variations hold "number 2" position in my priorities. Every variation is a part of own award's history. It tells us about statute changes, about different mints it was manufactured with and many others.

Dan, here we go. I put red circles on those "long" and "short" wings. Sorry, I have no idea what is the correct name for this part of a tank.

Dan, "short wing" is on the right and common "long wing" is on the left. When I come home from my job I can post comparative pictures of those variations as well as the number range for "short wing".

I was talking about "short wing" variation. The medal that you displayed has "long wing", it is visible even from the small picture.

Very interesting discussion, gentlemen. I want to tell my opinion on this topic. We are all different. And every collector decides by himself what to collect. For example I have a friend Alex Filer (you know him probably) and he only collects screwback orders. He would buy screwback Red Banner but he is not interested in suspension variation of the same award. The other friend of mine collects only Red Stars. But he is buying every tiny variation of this order and also buying Red Stars from every 10.000 number range. It looks strange, but this is his way. So I think, that it is very personal what to buy and how much to pay. I know people in Russia who are crazy about awards with "mint mistakes". Sometimes they pay 5 times of the regular price to get this item. I would never do the same, but I respect their point of view. Maybe you know that I'm running a web site about Soviet Awards. So I'm trying to describe every little variation or sub-variation of particular order or medal. Even though I'm not interested in small sub-variations (I more prefer to study the story of the award), but I would describe them to help variation-lovers. I guess that the more classification is full and detailed, the more it useful. Some people can collect only "types", some can extend their collections to "variations" and some may have fun going deeper into "subvariations". Also you all know that prices are extremely high today. Lets say I have already bought all cheap types and variations. But I can not afford to spend thousands of dollars for expensive staff. But I'm a collector and my instinct pushes me to buy something new. What should I do in this case? Right, I would go to subvariations. About this variation of Bravery medal with short "wing". It is well known variation on Russian market. But it is not very rare ore unique. It has very clear number ranges and probably is a result of die press-form reparing. BTW my grandfather got this variation of Bravery medal. So it's all up to you wether or not to buy it If you still have a chance to obtain it for regular Type 2 Bravery price, then do not hesitate...

Second page.

OK Dave! But first I want to post the highest number I've ever seen with a document. I'm not sure if it's original or not. The Decree data is the same as in Novruzov's orderbook. Serial numbers of both order and orderbook are pretty close to those in Novruzov's group. Could be real and could be fake. First page.

This situation is true not only for "Service to Motherland" order, but for many other orders as well. Here is a very brief explanation. Orders were given to recipients in their units. Certain groups of awards were sent to different Military Districts. For example Far Eastern Military district got the numbers from 20.000 to 25.000. At the same time North Caucasian Military District got the numbers from 35.000 to 40.000 and Kiev Military District received the ranges from 40.000 to 50.000. When the Award Decree came out (for example on February 23, 1980) all those districts issued the numbers from their ranges at the same time. Same thing is for October Revolution, Friendship of Nations and other orders.

Dave, I have images of several documents for 3rd class "crab" with s/n above 70.000. I believe that they are original. If you are interested I can post the pictures.

Sure it is!!! Do you plan a research?

Nice order Gerd, my congrats!!!

Thanks a million Dave! I believe that many forum members would be happy to see this card. And this little trick with watermark on the image is really good solution to protect your copyright from all sorts of crooks. So what did we learn from this? I guess that from now all "crabs" with 106.XXX serial numbers could be considered as "possibly issued".

Ed, of course Dave made a good point. But I thought that we are all trying to find a truth here. If Dave said "A" I was expecting to hear "B". Dave, I understand that you paid your own money for research. But this picture came from Russian collector some years ago. There is a very small chance that the person who currently owns this order can visit this forum and steal your research. But other fellow forum members would definetely appreciate your information about highest issued number. At least you can post second page only, so there would be no important information shown

Great job, Dave! Can you post the images of this award card? Still I have to say that those cases of orders above 100.000 being issued is more like an exception, not a rule. Maybe few numbers were sent to some remote Military District and only few of them were actually awarded.

Thanks for info, Dima! I found some more information about this unit. On March 2003 military helicopter Ka-27PS that was assigned to this unit took off from the major anti-submarine ship "Admiral Tributs". Few seconds after take-off helicopter crashed into the sea and 4 crew members were killed (including Lt.Colonel Topirichev). Here is a link to this article http://www.vladnews.ru/magazin.php?id=12&a...nt_magazin=1553 It is in Russian but it has a picture of Lt.Colonel Topirichev and a picture of a monument to helicopter's crew.

And finally the award card. I want to say "THANKS A LOT" to Dave (NavyFCO) for his help in getting this award card

Orderbook.

Reverse.

This is my 3rd class "crab". Obverse.

Your 95148 looks good!

Dave, you are right! But because of some weird reason people like us prefer to buy odd-looking silver items instead of diamonds If I only have some spare money.... But I think my wife would not understand me...

Beautiful order indeed! The next owner would add a real diamond to his collection...

Thank you!