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A seven medal Beamten bar for you, I am hoping to find a name to this one at some stage, must be quite a rare combination. EK2 MVK2 with Crown and Swords on Kriegsverdienst ribbon. (Gebruder Hemmerle) Reuss fur Verdienst (not sure whether its a gold one with gilding loss or nicely patinated silver one.) FEK maker L.NBG. 1911 PRLM Golden Wedding Medal 1918 DA1 15 year long service medal. Any help or thoughts on the possibility of finding who this belonged to would be greatly appreciated, but most of all I hope you enjoy looking at it. Regards Pete

Hi Daniel thanks for your comments, the reason I think it is a Royal HOH4 is because of the marks on the ribbon which have been made by a medal being in place for a long time. I have tried to take some better pictures to show what I mean, and have taken some measurements and compared them with a HOH3 that I have as I know the HOH3 and HOH4 are identical in size and mounting. This impression on the ribbon is straight and measures 2cm, also this is 4.5cms from the bottom of the LD1 medal. Comparing these measurement against the HOH3 I have they match exactly, the mounting bar is 2cm and if it were mounted on this bar the bottom of the HOH3 would be exactly level with the LD1. I am sure you are familiar with the mounting methods of the Royal and Princely devices but here are pictures for those who aren't. HOH4 Princely 3rd with crown As you can see I don't think the Princely device could make the indentation on the ribbon as it is mounted from a ring and its crown being 3 dimensional has no flat straight part to make the mark. Whereas the Royal device mounts from a 2cm straight bar which is proud of the crown. The impression on the ribbon is even more pronounced in hand than the photo makes it look. Am I making the right assumptions or is there some other explanation that I am ignorant of ? All your comments are really appreciated.

Thanks Matthew thats great information so he got his twenty years in before the war. So this guy must have been born in the early 1870s and been in his forties at the outbreak of war. Presumably he couldn't have received his LD1 until he was commissioned so he would just have had the Centenary medal an LD2 and his HOH4 (Inhabers Cross) as reward for long service as an NCO, then as he was promoted to Leutnant RAO4, KO4 and LD1. The other three awards are obviously wartime so he has some association with Brunswick. Thanks again if only there was a roll for the HOH4, I don't think it was awarded that often.

Excellent post Saschaw you will have to excuse my ignorance of prussian awards I did not realize that with swords changed the ribbon to EK2 type ribbon. I presume this rule also applies to the HOH4 (Inhabers Kreuz) so therefore as you say they must all be peace time awards. So as you say we must be talking about; RAO4 KO4 HOH4 (Inhabers Kreuz) Not an Officers Award All without swords. So he must therefore be a through the ranks Officer with at least 20 calender years in to achieve his LD1, I know Prussia suspended service awards during WW1 but did they continue awarding after the war? I can't find anyone with a HOH4 in the 1914 Rangliste so he must have received alot of awards in those last few months and indeed a Commission. I would love to reconstruct this bar and would appreciate any further help

Here is my only Bavarian Officers ribbon bar. It belonged to Major Paul Schmitt a staff Officer and I also have the bar. The ribbons are; MVO3X with crown Military merit order third class with swords and crown EK2 Iron cross second class HOH3X Royal Hohenzollern Knights cross third class with swords SA4aX with crown Saxon Albert cross first class with swords and crown MVO4 Military merit order fourth class JM 1905 Jubillee medal DA2 24 year Officers long service cross Regards

Yes I agree with earlier replies this is copied from a postcard made from an original painting by Hans Bohrdt called 'der letzte mann' ( the last man in english) and depicts the sea battle off the Falkland Islands on 8th Dec 1914. Regards

My next contribution is a five medal medic bar and is one of my favourites hope you like it too. Voluteer Nursing merit cross with 1914 bar on ribbon (Freiwillige Krankenplege Verdienstkreuz) Maker marked between the arms Gebruder Hemmerle with 900 silver content FEK maker G14 DA3 Prussian 3rd class red cross medal in zinc. Bavarian 20 year red cross service medal. The owner obviously loved his bar as he has polished most of the silver finish off of the DA3.Interestingly the FEK is with swords, any thoughts on this?

Interesting discussion guys I got my assumptions from a thread I read on here from a similar question asked by Chris Dale hope its ok to paste it as it makes great reading and is another knowledgeable reply by Rick. Posted 12 January 2011 - 10:55 Good question. Here's Rick Researches answer to a similar question (I hope he won't mind me quoting him from the Wehrmacht Awards Forum http://www.wehrmacht...ead.php?t=26723 ). "The M1913 IX years service medal on the right was given only to enlisted ranks. When found in an officer's or official's group, such an award indicates service up from the ranks. Typically, Feuerwerks, Veterinary etc officers spent long years as NCOs before being commissioned, and in such cases they continued to wear their enlisted long service awards, but these were not made TO officers." Hope this helps, also as I understand it as soldiers received crowns to thier MVO4's or indeed MVO3's they had to return thier old award first before the new one was issued. These returned awards were then recycled so an early war gold centre one could be awarded later in the war if you were lucky!! Great forum!!

I like both of them, but I also like this. Great bars guys, really like that Austrian award any chance of some close ups?

This time a four medal bar of a through the ranks Leutnant. MVO4X Weiss and Co real gold medalions EK2 Maker CD 800 Hamburg Hanseatic Cross DA3 Interesting in that he doesn't seem to have received any other Bavarian award (apart from DA3) before being made Leutnant. Presumably must have served some years either before or between the 1905 and 1911 Jubilee medals and got recalled for war service, achieved his DA3 then got made Leutnant fairly early in the War. Hence his real gold MVO4X, though I understand some real gold ones were recycled later in the war when pot luck may have secured you one! Hope you like it.

Hi Ulsterman the bar on the Coburg medal is 1914/17. Glad you like it. I don't suppose you know if the Saxe Coburg silver medal rolls have been printed and if so how could I get hold of a copy?

Another one from my collection this time a five medal bar for an unteroffizier with a quite unusual combination. EK2 MVK3X kr maker Lauer Saxe Coburg Gotha Silver Merit Medal with 1914/17 spange FEK DA3 appears to be in silver Interestingly as Spolei showed earlier this DA3 is maker marked, where he showed, "CHR Lauer Nurnberg." I don't believe the Saxe Coburg medal points to a regimental connection so this guy must presumably have been connected in some way to Saxe Coburg Gotha itself. I bought this as it was the first time I have seen a SEHO silver medal on a Bavarian NCO bar. Hope you like it.

Thanks guys for your input and interest. Chris you were right they indeed had spelt his name wrong on the Certificates, but I thought I had checked all the obvious options, but then again I forget more than I remember these days!! Dave thanks for the info you are indeed correct that this can't be his bar as he received a DA3 and I agree with Spolei on 28/6/1918 he was lightly wounded on his left side by a shell splinter and spent the next 4 weeks in various hospitals, so he would have got a Black Wound Badge as well. For the record he was listed as Gefreiter on the MVK3X certificate and Unteroffizier on the EK2 certificate and ended as sergeant. Thanks again.

Hi here is one from my collection at first sight a modest little 3 medal bar of a Bavarian unteroffizier. EK2 maker marked WS on the small ring fixed to the medal. MVK3 with swords unmarked Deschler I think. FEK marked G18. Its not until you see the certificates that came with this bar that this bar comes to life. ( Sorry about the quality but its difficult to photograph through the glass.) This bar belonged to Konrad Kissling of the 9th Company of the Bavarian 6th Reserve Regiment. He earned his MVK3X on 17th June 1916 and his EK2 on 28th June 1917. The EK2 certificate is unusual in that it details why he was awarded it. " Fur tapferkeit in der kampfen im Okt 1914 und der Schlacht an der Somme." What makes it special to me is the thought that a couple of weeks after being awarded his MVK3X most of his mates were gone, either dead or prisoners on the first day of the Somme. The kB RIR6 was virtually annihilated only a few hundred remained of which Konrad was one of the lucky few! Unfortunately I can't find out any more as his service history doesn't appear on Ancestry. I hope you like this poignant little group.

Hi, I wonder if anybody can help me. I am trying to find out more about an Oberleutnant who is listed in the 1914 Rangliste as being in the 3rd Garde Landwehr Regiment. He is listed in the 2nd Aufgebot and seems very highly decorated for an Oberleutnant, having the following awards; RAO4 with Crown KO3 HOH3 w/o swords LD2 I am particularly interested in his service history and any further awards he may have received in the war, as I am trying to pin him as a possible name behind a medal bar I have. Thanks in advance and any advice on researching Prussian Officers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your comment guys when I first saw this bar I thought exactly as you do namely; EK2, Red Eagle without swords Crown Order without swords Princely Hoh but with it in hand I can see where the Hohenzollern medal was attached and at that point is an impression in the ribbon that matches the mounting bar of the Royal medal. As you know the Princely one mounts from a ring, that couldn't possibly make this mark. Anyway after Claudius asked what the regulations said I tried a Google, and hey presto I managed to find the Prussian precedence regulations for Feb 1915 they are as follows; 1 EK2 1870 or 1914 2 Royal HOH with swords 3 RAO3 or 4 with swords 4 KO3 or 4 with swords 5 Gold Military Merit Cross 6 Military Decoration 1st Class 7 Military Decoration 2nd Class 8 Russian Order of St George 4th Class 9 Austro-Hungarian Maria Theresa Order 10 Prussian Life Saving Medal 11 Prussian War Effort Cross ( Created 5/12/16) 12 Royal Hohenzollern, RAO, KO on peacetime ribbon 13 Red Cross second Class Medal 14 Orders of non Prussian States subordinate to Prussia ( If wearing that states cockade) 15 Merit Cross in Gold with or without crown 16 Merit Cross in Silver with or without crown 17 Cross of the General Decoration 18 General Decoration 19 XXV Service Cross 20 Princely HOH House Order 2 or 3 class ( war or peace ribbon) 21 Red Cross third class Medal 22 1864 Duppel Cross 23 1864 Alsen Cross 24 Long Service Awards XX, XV,or XII 25 RAO Medal 26 KO Medal 27 Reichs Kriegsverdienst Medal ( granted only to native troops in the colonies) 28 Long Service Awards IX or reserve Landwehr Medal 29 1870-71 Medal 30 1866 War Cross 31 1864 War Medal 32 Colonial Medal 33 1904-06 Southwest Africa Medal 34 1900-01 China Medal 35 1848-49 Princely HOH Campaign Medal 36 1898 Jerusalem Cross 37 Olberg Cross 38 1861 Coronation Medal 39 1897 Centenary Medal 40 Electoral Hesse Jubilee Medals 41 Hannovarian Jubilee Medals 42 Non Prussian Orders (except 8 and 9) as desired 43 Non Prussian Medals as desired Sorry for the length of this post, but I thought this might be useful to others. As you can see from these Regs there is another possibility for the missing medals that would fit what I can see on the bar. If the RAO and KO were with swords then a peacetime Royal HOH would indeed sit after them which I must admit I was surprised at. This raises another question for you Prussian experts if he already had the RAO and KO medals without swords would the next level of wartime award be to add swords or would it be Third Class with swords? Anyone still awake? Sorry again for the length of this!!

I recently acquired this bar as I thought it was an interesting mix of medals. I initially thought with Landwehr XX long service missing medals were probably RAO4 without swords, KO4 without swords and princely Hohenzollern. However when I got the bar, and hopefully you can see from the photos, there is a dent in the Hohenzollern ribbon exactly where the mount bar of a Royal Hohenzollern would be. So could this be a Royal Hohenzollern without swords? Surely though it should be after the EK2? What do you guys with more experience than me think? Any thoughts on rank and ID possibilities? Thanking you all in advance and hope you like it.

Many thanks to Christophe and Dave for their prompt and knowledgeable responses. It would appear that this is indeed the bar of Paul Schmitt. Christophe the last part of your first post should this read EK2 and not MVO3? Anyone have a date for his EK1? Vtwinvince thanks for the offer but I would prefer an awarded piece. One other thing that has puzzled me is the lack of post WW1 awards does anyone have info on what became of him? Thanks again everybody for replying and I am glad you all like the bar.

Firstly can I say hello to everyone on this great site and a Merry Christmas. This is my first post so treat me gently!! I have been collecting now for about two years and have now focussed mainly on the medals and docs of Bavaria in the WW1 period, though I still can't resist the odd item from Mecklenburg-Schwerin, if funds allow! The Bavarian military records being available online really swayed it. I have just received this bar and ribbon, which I couldn't resist. The seller tells me it belonged to a Paul Schmitt. Unfortunately, just my luck, his service record doesn't appear on the above mentioned site. From the 1914 Bavarian Rank List I have managed to find out the following about Paul Schmitt; Born 1873 (haven't got exact date.) Patent to Second Leut 5/3/1894 (with IR15) Patent to OberLeut 9/3/1902 (Still with IR15?) Patent to Hauptmann 26/10/1907 Patent to Major 25/8/1913 He received a Jubilee medal in 1905, but when the Rank List was published in May 1914 he hadn't received a pre war MVO4. From Military directories I found the following; 1900 listed as Adjutant at IR15 based at Dillingen 1905 Oberleut with Jubilee medal Ir15 at War Academy 1907 At General Staff Central 1909 Hauptmann at IR17 1911 Back at General Staff Central 1914 Major as Chief of Staff at General Staff Munich. (6th Div) So basically I am after your help to take me further and hopefully to confirm this as really his bar and ribbon. As you can see the first medal which I have been told was a MVO3 with crown and swords has been removed, my next job!! Sorry I can't post the backs in this post but I have run out of upload space. Any help and comments would be greatly appreciated and I thank you in advance.