Steve Russell

To continue the thread as a repository for PlM Minis, I've noticed a disturbing trend in some new minis appearing on the market. These appear to be similar to the full-sized Spanish fakes and show the same spotty pale blue enamel. Here is a side by side example that someone showed at an auction. Both were being passed as original. [attachmentid=62898] More to follow. I am also posting for opinions a piece being offered that appears to me to have a legit Godet Knopfloch with a poorly drilled hole on the band and a fake Spanish PlM mini added. That's what it looks like to me anyway. Would be interested in opinions on this and also what I am calling the Spanish mini fake. Steve

As usual, a good run down Les. I concede the Wagner piece and the use of 'Jeweler' having emotion. My point was that the connected letters did appear in period pieces prior to the '57 S&Ls, albeit rarely. They are mostly seen on the '57s though and taken together with the other points noted, it is a decent way for people to do a 'quick spot' on a 1957 piece as opposed to what they might think is a fake. Thanks, Steve

Here's one you don't see everyday....or year...or decade...or century. And to say there are no bargains on eBay! http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-Orden-altes-Komtur...1QQcmdZViewItem Still on probation (for reasons unknown to me) so I cannot post decent-sized pics. Steve

Here's another link for a different perspective. Steve Vets for Victory

Brian, I don't know why the S&L included it other than there were still living PlM recipients in fair numbers in 1957 and the regulations for the Pour le Merite stipulated the state would award a crown for 50 years of holding the award. This continued even after the end of the Imperial age. Friedrich Christiansen received just such an S&L '57 piece with crown after qualifying for it in December of 1967. Here is a pic that points out the 'quick check' points for an S&L '57 piece. 1 - Flat bottom eagle legs forming a straight line. Only the S&Ls have this. I have seen no Spanish fakes that have this flat bottom (what gives the Spanish fakes away every time is no holes or gaps around the legs. They are solid in the center and these constitute the largest numbers of fakes on eBay). 2 - No feet or claws that join the base of the arm. Just the straight edge that bluntly joins it. 3 - The connected 'UR' is very characteristic of an S&L. While some minor examples exist of this in other jeweler pieces, no S&L piece that I am aware of lacks the connected 'UR.' 4 - But the S&L 'L' in 'le' still lacks the 'hooked' top end of the letter. A hooked end, which would make it look like a '1' instead of an 'l,' is a sure sign of most fakes. Nearly every original PlM has a clean 'L' vice a hooked top. That is why I think this piece is possible (although the story we may never know) and is an S&L 1957 piece. But, as PlM descendants certainly came to America (like your family), the story is not outright impossible. Hope this helps, Steve [attachmentid=61339]

While the story may be a stretch, the piece does look like an S&L 1957. Steve

The Army has been shortchanged. I recommended 3 of my men for Silver Stars out of the 1500 that passed through my ranks. None of them were approved--even though they were sent with a 2-star division commander's recommendation for approval!! One Staff Sergeant earned three Bronze Stars for Valor as a result because of his downgrades. Now how is it he was not given a Silver Star? What did he have to do? Die? My unit was awarded a Valorous Unit Award for its role in defeating the insurgency in Tikrit and the Capture of Saddam Hussein. Last time I checked, they were'nt handing out VUAs to be hung on unit colors. Now how is it that my unit can be awarded the Silver Star yet none of my soldiers? Pathetic. Medals are meant to inspire the other soldiers as much as they are to recognize individual deeds. In World War II, commanders carried weight in their recommendations. Now some guy whose ass is shaped like a chair in Baghdad or DC makes the determination. Yet our generals, most of whom have never fought in small unit actions where they had to kill face to face, seem content to award only Purple Hearts. Even those have become unbelievable in terms of difficulty the get through our system. I had to write congressmen and nasty letters to the Army G1's office to get one of my medic's Purple Heart approved, even though he had the medical records that showed where a surgeon picked about 40 pieces of fragmentation out of his head, neck, arm and lower torso. He finally got his award last July. Good thing I pinned it on him anyway in January 2004 when he earned it. We live in the day of the anti-hero. Everybody should feel good. Everybody is doing their part we say. Yet the killed and wounded continue to come from the very places they always come from. The combat arms guys on the ground. Sure, there are exceptions, but the numbers don't lie. As you might surmise, this is a sore issue with me. I don't care what the Marines or the Air Force or the Navy awards. That is their business and they seem to understand the value of awards a fair bit bitter than the Army. But why the Army doesn't listen to commanders in the fight is beyond me. Steve

Except the fact that it is a Spanish copy made recently! Steve

Dan, Regular soldiers, officer and enlisted, certainly did wear their medals full size but they were not authorized for service uniforms unless they were being awarded or if the service uniform was worn in lieu of a formal uniform when prescribed. Most WWII vets were not regulars and were discharged before ever having the need for a formal uniform. Here is a picture of a pretty famous guy wearing his medals according to the regulations of the 1930s--the same that governed WWII. [attachmentid=59076] The current regs are near identical to the older ones. Here is an excerpt from AR 670-1: 29?8. Wear of full-size U.S. and foreign decorations and service medals a. Where worn. All personnel may wear full-size decorations and service medals on the Army blue and white uniforms. When the Army green dress uniform is worn to social functions, enlisted personnel may wear full-size decorations and service medals on the coat of the green dress uniform. b. How worn. Personnel wear all full-size decorations, except the Medal of Honor (worn at the neck) in the order of precedence from the wearer?s right to left, in one or more rows, with 1/8-inch space between rows. Second and subsequent rows will not contain more medals than the row below. Personnel will not wear service and training ribbons when full-size decorations and service medals are worn. Personnel may wear U.S. and foreign unit award emblems as prescribed, when wearing full-size medals. Full-size medals are worn as follows: (1) Males wear full-size medals immediately above the left breast pocket, in as many rows as necessary. The number of medals worn in each row depends upon the size of the coat. Full-size decorations or medals will not overlap within a row. [attachmentid=59078] The second pic is a photo-montage of how your ancestor's medals could be worn by the reg. Given that there are five, a single row is appropriate and presents the best appearance for a display in my opinion because you can view them all. But a stack does look nice. And while Coastie is coorect that the Philippine Liberation Medal used to be a ribbon, it is a full-sized, authorized decoration now. It may also be that your relative was authorized other medals, such as the Occupation Medal and others. Hope this helps. Steve

Nothing spectacular but a nice representation of what a fighting Wurttemburger might have earned. And I second Don's welcome Steven. Good to see you over here as well. Steve [attachmentid=58967]

To Mark and Dave. Pretty good sleuthing. Yes, as I think about the FJ connection to 122 Rgt, the Landwher seem sless likely now. And Mark, how right you are about the eBay 'hang whatever you have' on it. One other thing that I wondered about with the red Ribbon award. Is it possible that it may be the Signum Laudis peacetime award? Steve

I don't disagree with that possibility Mark, especially given the add on medals to the bar. Given the Hindenburg Cross, the 25 TR medal is indeed likely. The Landwehr possibility may also account for the Wrtmbrg ribbon. Perhaps since medals are missing and since the vet added what he added, the pre-TR long service cross was hung there incorrectly from his authorized awards. The good news for Josef though is that this bar appears to be legit--even with odd long service combinations. Steve

Josef, You raise a good point. It may be that this medal is also a Wtmbg Landwehr Service medal. I believe they used the same long service ribbon, or it could be the 12 year which would be a different color medal (silver). But these combinations did exist with the traditional Prussian blue long service ribbon. I have often been stumped by them. Here is a 5'er ribbon button device that shows the same long service combo. Steve [attachmentid=57869]

Josef, In addition to the fine example Dave posted, here are examples of the other two so you know what to look for. I'd post the backs but I am still 'on probation' as a new member and don't have the space allotted. The back of the long service says, Fu"r treue Dienst bei der Fahne' and has a wreath with 'IX.' The Austrian Award says 'Signum Memorae' on the reverse. If the bar was stored well, the ribbons can be quite nice. And to Dave, I thought of that as well but given the other combatant awards, it is just as likely the same. Steve [attachmentid=57868]

Josef, Number two is likely the Wurttemburg Merit Cross with Swords (Verdienstkreuz mit Schwerten). Number four is likely the Wurttemburg Long Service Medal, 9-years of Service. The sixth Award I am guessing would be the 1908 Austrian Jubilee (Signum Memorae). That's my stab at it. It is a nice bar and those missing medals are not impossible to find and the last two missing are pretty common. Steve

Mr. Smith, The cross, crown well and pin look plausible. And it is obviously made of silver with the green dross on it. As to the engraving, I know these seem dubious most of the time, but it does not appear to have been done recently. Beyond those thoughts, I leave it to Rick or the other experts. Steve

Thought you guys might be interested in Stephen Prevetera's opinion on this over at the WAF. Steve http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...d=1#post1643006

Well that's encouraging Daniel. Especially given that Bob Hritz and I landed near identical pieces and he is certainly no ametuer. I remember in the 1980s running across a half dozen Luftwaffe mini devices. To see them together now, they would look suspect, but they are very real and very high quality. As I said over in the WAF, I thought it possible that a small lot of these 9mm minis could have surfaced given the quality and materials (gold). Bob stated that his came from a small lot. I would be interested in why these (other than the vendor they may have come from) would or would not be legitimate minis, given that this identical design exists on legitimate stick pins. Here's one below. Can't remember where it came from so apologies if it belongs to someone. I will remove or credit if so. Thanks for the continued discussion. Steve [attachmentid=57726]

My vote would be fake based, for starters, on the shape of the crown well. Steve

Alexandre, Check out Robert Panis' article here on Andrea' Ising's site. http://medalnet.net/pandis.htm If you are referring to the commemorative badge, the article has several examples. Very thorough article on Prussian Pilot badges of all types. Steve

Ralph, thanks for those minis. Truly beautiful. I particularly like the faux baroque style on the pie wedge of the first one. I hope others will post theirs so the thread can serve as a useful reference for PlM Minis. To Brian, I suppose it is possible. To all, I guess my original question still stands, "Has anyone encountered 9mm minis before?" I concede that this mini could be post 45. I would argue that most minis were post 1918. I presented one above in four pics that is identical to mine and certainly looks ok. This same style has also been encountered in stick pins in 9mm, as Dan can attest to. I also apologize for the quality of the pics. This thing is so small it is very hard to get closer. If you look at the link in the first post it will take you to a few more detailed pics on the WAF. It appears to be gold. And it appears to have very fine workmanship to be so very small. Has anyone encountered 9mm minis before? Thanks to all for your continued discussion, submissions and input. Steve

Here is a similar 9mm mini. I forget where I found the pics but it was on one of the big online auction houses. Were there no 9mm minis? I am curious on this one as well. Steve [attachmentid=57053] [attachmentid=57054] [attachmentid=57056] [attachmentid=57057]

Ok guys thanks. That is why I posted it here. I can accept not pre-45. Would be nice if it was while guys were living though as Jewelers do vary. But I accept the information on all of your word that the vendor is a fraud. I set a price I was willing to pay as if it might be a reproduction, given that minis can go for huge sums. So I am not out a great deal - $135.00. Would rather it would be, but at least there is not $850 & up into it. It is very well made, looks to have gold content and still looks pretty next to my Meybauer. As I take no offense to any comments given here, how about an education on this particular mini and PlM minis in general. Les (and others), please share what you know on this one (what you should look for, etc.) and other minis for the benefit of all. I have archived several photos but maybe this thread could serve as a good survey of PLM minis. Thanks. Steve

Thanks Wild Card. I like that one as well. Is it 16mm? I was really happy with this 9mm one. It came out of Germany. Becasue it is one-sided and high end, I wondered if Meybauer might have made it. The Godet examples I have seen so far, are 16mm, but they certainly produced everything. I am hoping someone can shed some light on it or find it in a catalogue. Steve

Chris, Here is a firm that does it in the UK. I have not used them for mounting but have found ribbon through them. Look at this link. http://www.worldmedals.co.uk/Rib/rem.htm They state they have discontinued the mounting service but it can give you an idea as to pricing. And who knows? They may be willing to help anyway. I do restorations (not fakes!) and can give you examples of my work but without existing bars and parts, it is more difficult. Steve