Dave Wilkinson

Thank you for the clarification. Dave.

I may be missing something here, but what is it exactly that the fire service are awarding? Insofar as Government approved (By Royal Warrant) medals are concerned the fire service themselves award nothing. Unless its a "home grown" award for additional service. Or has the fire service long service & good conduct medal Royal Warrant been amended? Dave.

I don't know what the conversion rates are but I suspect that its not worth more than £20-25. Ebay is awash with them and few if any seem to sell. Dave.

From the 1980's through to to-day I'd guess. When it was issued the mesh liner would have been backed with a dark grey foam cushioning. However, with the passage of time this crumbles away leaving just the mesh backing. Its not a "rare" item but quite common. Thousands of them are issued each year and they are seldom recovered and are often given away as keep sakes to tourists etc. I hope this is helpful. Dave.

Yes, they were about an inch tall. Those on epaulettes (present day) were/are smaller. Dave.

You could possibly try the current Sovereign Base Areas Police in Cyprus. They were established in 1962 and he may well have served with them. They may have some records that will assist. There were other British Police Forces which existed in Cyprus viz:- War Dept. Police (Cyprus) 1960-64. Army Dept. Police (Cyprus) 1964-1968 and Army Depot Police (Cyprus) 1968-1995 I suspect that the historical records for those three forces may be held at Kew under a MoD Reference. I hope this is helpful. Dave.

Yes, I agree. Dave.

Simon is quite right. The more information there is in the public domain which identifies what is and isn't a fake simply allows those who are disposed to producing such things, the benefit of such knowledge. They are then able to "hone" their craft to such an extent that it becomes more and more difficult to detect what is an is not the real thing. Its down to each collector acquiring knowledge and sharing it. But not, I would suggest, in the public arena. Dave.

The attached photos show a cork Senior Officer ceremonial helmet which dates from the 1950's. As you can see the seam is evident above the helmet plate but does not extend down to the peak. So, the inclusion of a seam may not necessarily be indicative of a modern helmet. As you can see its a complicated subject where there are apparently no hard and fast rules. Dave.

The City Police have had contracts with a variety of manufacturers over the years and in some cases the finished product differed slightly. The lack of vent holes in each side of the helmet was, at one time, a hallmark of a City Police helmet. However, in recent years vent holes have been added so that the helmet could conform to British standard specifications. Christy's manufactured helmets with and without centre seams, what they supplied depended upon the specification. As I understand it, the City Police issue two types of helmet. The first is a cork helmet which is not re-enforced and has the one leather chin strap and the second is a rigid plastic shelled re-enforced version which has the "riot" straps fitted. Each officer gets one of each pattern. Dave.

The "999" City of London helmet plates which are usually seen with an "E" Div. letter, were not made for the collector market. They are genuine City Police helmet plates which were presented by the City Police to certain individuals as souvenirs. It would be inappropriate to insert a currently used collar number and divisional letter, so 999 "E" was used. Dave.

No divisional letters, only numbers. Dave.

Norman, Very interesting. I've no doubt the family will be indebted to you for clarifying the details of Mr. Sutherland's service, and in particular for giving an indication as to why he was awarded the "foreign" medals. Dave.

If your man was from Lanarkshire, he would be wearing this cap badge.

The photo does not appear to be of a member of the Lanarkshire Constabulary. That force had quite distinctive cap badges consisting of a double headed eagle from formation in 1857 through to demise in 1975. They never wore at any time the Scottish National Cap Badge. A search of the Home Office Medal Roll of the recipients of the 1937 Coronation Medal shows that at the time of the award, William Swanson Sutherland, was serving as a Sergeant in the Glasgow City Police. In all probability he spent his entire career with Glasgow. He is not, as already stated, wearing Lanarkshire uniform. One other point I should make is that during this man's service there was no such rank as "Chief Inspector" in Glasgow. The rank between Inspector and Superintendent was "Lieutenant". I regret I'm not able to identify the medal you ask about.

Yes, they have always worn brass fittings on everything right from their formation. Whistle chains, buttons, numerals/letters, belt buckles, rank insignia, the lot. Nothing white metal or chrome. It is what they are famous (certainly in the UK) for. They have always been "different" and have always stood out like a sore thumb for their unique uniform. Whilst all the other forces in Scotland, England & Wales wear black & white diced cap bands the City Police wear red and white. Dave.

The photo appears to show Metropolitan Police officers, not City of London. City of London Police have always used brass/anodised buttons and numerals on their uniforms. Dave.

Jack, If you will tell me what period of Metpol. insignia history you are interested in I will try to upload an image of the appropriate board. The Met. have had a wide variety of badges etc since 1829, too many for one single display. If you send me a PM I will send you a further image of the City of London badges which you may be able to enlarge. I hope you enjoyed the book. Dave Dean's website on the City Police is, as you say, well worth a visit. Dave.

The photo which you have shown displays the correct pattern helmet plate for the period you are referring to. I'm attaching for your information, a photo of the various City of London insignia items worn almost since the force was formed. Dave.

See the attached photo. There are loops front and back of the sleeve. Dave.

The tunics are correctly tailored to accept the armlets via two loops of material which are fitted to the lower sleeve of the tunic. Dave.

Thank you for your further message. The information I give is taken from an undated and unpublished manuscript which was written in approximately 1972. It is titled "History of Metropolitan Police Uniforms & Equipment" by Norman W.H. Fairfax (Executive Officer of the Metropolitan Police Civilian Staff) and Victor L.H. Wilkinson (Chief Superintendent of the Metropolitan Police). The version I have is a very poor photocopy. The manuscript refers throughout to photographic images which it was intended to be included in the final publication and indeed I have over the years seen several of these images which were obviously specifically taken for inclusion. However, none of these accompanied the manuscript itself. For whatever reason the book was never published. I know not for certain, but perhaps funding was an issue. There is nothing further I can add to the discussion insofar as the badge itself is concerned. What I would say is that there is ample evidence that many of the badges (in various forms) worn by the MSC were not issued by the force, but were in fact privately purchased. The MSC, particularly during the Great War and after was often peopled, especially at senior rank, by wealthy, well connected and often titled individuals who would simply have a divisional emblem or badge made at their own expense for issue to their men. Officialdom appeared, on the face of it, to turn a blind eye to much of this individuality. I hope this is helpful. Dave.

I don't quite know why you should assume that there are versions showing colours other than blue enamel. My original post (shown below) makes that quite clear. 'These stars were awarded to those who had presented themselves for attestation in the Metropolitan Special Constabulary BEFORE midnight on 31st December 1914. They were worn on the left forearm only. For those ranks of Inspector and above the "ring" surrounding the centre and the centre itself was enamelled dark blue with the wording "Metropolitan 1914" and the inter twined "SC" centre showing in relief.' Looking at your previous posts contained within this thread, you really seem to be going off, for some reason, on a totally irrelevant tangent here. Dave.

Please find attached a photo of the example I have as requested. Dave.

They are entitled to be recommended for the general civilian gallantry awards of the UK and the recommendation can be made by anyone to the appropriate Government Dept. The RNLI is a voluntary organisation and as such it would probably not be appropriate for them to be singled out for a Govt. long service award. Whilst the RNLI is the largest of such organisations, there are a great many other voluntary lifeboat & life saving associations up and down the coast of the UK who perform the same role but who operate independently of the RNLI. If you single one out, it would open the floodgates to a whole raft of voluntary associations seeking Govt. recognition for their members long service. Don't forget, their individual service can be recognised (and often is) by awards of the MBE and BEM, as appropriate. Dave.