JimZ

Granted on the patina though I still do not like it. I disagree that the serial number looks ok even if you compare to Andrei's images...especially if you compare to Andrei's images! The depth of the serial number is not consistent with #245 and although this seems closer to the #747 please note different styles in the 7s! Again, "an uncommon variation of an uncommon order" My assessment is simple ...... does it convince me enough to buy it or not? (irrespective of price discussions). And here I find myself saying "no"! Jim

U might one day have the feebs sitting comfortably in your pocket right next to your nuts (pack of yellow M&Ms!) and you would never even know it! Jim

It seems like authorities in the US and Russia are starting to miss the busy times of the cold war and have less things to fill their day. Hence they fill their time with more petty things and take some sort of pride in ruining the joy of collectors worldwide. As for e-bay.... well I can understand them not wanting to be a platform for stuff that could get them in trouble with the authorities. E-bay remains a business and reduced commissions from selling medals can never be as costly as legal action being taking against them by some government or other possibly even resulting in closure of the site if the governement really gets peeved off! Sad how a matter of selfless bravery is now seen as a contract with the state and that the recipient, further to his selfelss act of bravery is now seen as owing something to that state just because the state saw it fit to give him an award...... which really means nothing much were it not for the act of bravery that is what really gives these orders and medals value! But I find I repeat myself when it comes to this point! Absolute bull anyways! Jim

An uncommon variation of an uncommon order complete with booklet, the price of which should already be prohibitive. Sadly I do not have sufficient info on my end to make a call. Neither have I ever had the honour to hold or study such an award. But when hitting the books I can say that I do not like the height of the mintmark, the way serial number is engraved nor the colour of the patination. Having said that, not much literature to back umy call on this. But I would keep away from it nevertheless. If you didn't and it came at a hefty price then I hope someone says my judgement is wrong! I can sadly say it has even happened with a couple of items of mine as well ! But as I always say.... no looking back and onto the next learning experience! Jim

Yes and no.... it never made it into the Soviet honours system did it? So from a historical point of view it may be indeed very interesting but speaking as a collector of awarded medals I beg to differ. Of course I am not saying its not a pretty piece - but still of no major importance to me. Now id the project for the order of Stalin did take off and was awarded that would in my opinion put this 'prototype' in a different league. By all means.... its entirely my view! How one can authenticate something that has never been issued is somehow beyond me. Jim

Prototype possible and if so out of some museum I would dare say! Durov's book shows similar one (with no serial number) in Goznak Museum. But hey.... this particular one was shown to Stalin no??? Guess yet again it is a case of buying the piece and not the story! And yes, the piece without the story is worth....exactly how much??!! Rarity maybe....but importance??!!! Jim

Seems a logical enough explanation! I somehow expected something more definitive but the size/weight of the item does make a lot of sense! One other question. when the new regulations came out, how were awarded medals to be converted? Could they be sent back in to mints or was it up to each awardee to convert his own orders. We do see some interesting home made as well as mint conversions, the thread on the ORB conversions being of utmost interest as far as this is concerned..... however what was the situation.... were each to be left to their own devices in converting the old awards to conform to the new regulations? I must also mention that in my list I failed to include the XX years of RKKA which also was converted from a rectangular suspension to new 5 sided suspension! Jim

Agreed.....way off topic.... But translators sadly make us sound like the little green guy from star wars no matter the language!!! So lets all keep trying!!! To all other polyglots out there! Now back to the topic. I have seen that type of ORB on ebay few times before. I recognise the mint mark and the serial number (particular that number "1"). Whereas I used to be more keen on the obverse of red banners to tell a fake from an original, I followed the tips given to me by some other members to instead learn to read the reverse of this particular order (and indeed many others too!). Lentiay in this thread and Mondvor (very strongly) on another thread are right. We have all the means at our disposal to combat fakes in this forum, in literature and on various websites. If only we did it the hard way and used our heads and combined resouurces.....although having said that, I do think that a lot of us out there do! Jim

Before I lay this thread down to rest..... do makers marks on Soviet orders remain more or less an obscure detail to us all? Jim

Sorry if I may not understand everything Lentiay.... but I too will make an effort!! Also keeping your points in one post would just make for better reading and logical sequence in case someone cuts in between yours thus breaking up the sequence! But from what you said my comments are as follows: 1) Changing the ribbons from red to any other coloured ribbon does not necessitate changing the suspension so I doubt that could have been a reason in itself. 2) I did get the right and left breast and method of wear being the same on each breast is infact logical. But that just raises another question.... why were some orders to be worn on the right breast and others on the left? The Order of Lenin/ Redbanner/ Order of Badge of Honour / Order of Red banner labour were all to be worn on the left breast. But why not have orders on the right breast and medals on the left? 3) 4 Screwback became pin suspensions..... if its as you suggested all the orders would become screwback for safer fastening. It does not sound consistent enough. Also, if after the revolution ODMs were by and large screwback or suspended by rectangular suspensions, why in 1943 did Stalin (I assume) back step to the older and more traditonal Russian (Czarist if I may) 5 sided suspension piece....... in a way, a symbol of the old regime that the revolution had overthrown. Also, I am sure something in writing was issued in the form of a decree.... does this exist or does anyone have a copy or translation of it? I do however believe that such document would probably only explain the new rules and not the reasons behind it! Jim

If I understand properly the only problem with this would be that the red banner may be worn in the wrong precedence i.e. if you were awarded only 1 red benner and no lenins, other lesser medals may preceed the ORB which would be placed at say the beginning of the second row ........ when its should have been worn as the first medal on the first bar. Would you get badly slapped on the wrist if you wore your medals in the wrong sequence or would you be OK as long as you held the right rank? Jim

I have not come across the 1943 regulations that have changed the method of wear of Soviet awards and medals but some of you probably have. I have some problems undertsanding the logic. The older awards as follows all were changed from Screwback to 5 sided suspension 1918 Order of Red Banner - Screwback to 5 sided suspension 1928 Order of the Red banner of Labour - Screwback to suspenison 1930 Order of Lenin - Screwback to 5 sided suspenison 1935 Order of the Badge of honour - Screwback to 5 sided suspenison So far so good. Later awards (orders/medals) that were ioriginally ssued with rectangular suspension were also subject to conversion. However this is where the consistency seems to stop: 1938 Medal for bravery - Rect Suspension to 5 sided suspension 1938 Medal for combat service (military merits)- Rect Suspension to 5 sided suspension So far still so good. However, the following rectangular suspensions were instead converted to screwbacks. 1942 Order of the Great Patriotic war - Rect Suspension to screwback 1942 Order of Suvorov - Rect Suspension to screwback 1942 Order of Kutuzov - Rect Suspension to screwback 1942 Order of Nevsky - Rect Suspension to screwback What is the logic behind these changes? Why were screwbacks converted to 5 sided suspensions and and rectangular suspension awards in part converted to screwbacks and in part to 5 sided suspension? Can anyone throw enlighten me please as I must admit I have never really asked myself this question. Jim

And I have never come across a non invasive conversion like the one in post 28! I can see why Andrei loves it..... !!!! Such a piece embodies the original piece and the historical changes made to it due to regulations without any damage whatsoever! Just an observation! With the screw back intact it muct have been a) a bit uncomfortable to wear due to the screw and b) would have probably had an awkward way of sitting on the breast (unless a hole would nevertheless be pierced and it would be screwed to the clothes in any case!) Jim

Yep yep yep yep! Fully agreed Ed. Jim

Double post removed. Apologies.

This orders stands for someone who fought for his motherland, or maybe even died for it... research may and will reveal.... As a general comment lets all (including myself) just remember this at all times and treat our beloved Orders and Medals with the full respect that is due to them in keeping them as well as in discussing them ...... even when these are the very source of argument or disagreement. They are not just coins or bits of precious metal. These are treasures indeed and to some, the only bit of glory and honour remaining from a now defunct and failed regime. Jim

Extremely interesting Andrei! In a way a pity to see so many Type 2s converted that way...but of course, its an integral part of the history of the order each and the change in the regulations of the wearing of these orders. Interesting question though... What is more original - the converted Type 2 (screwback - suspension) or the converted order that was re converted to original screwback (screwback - suspension -screwback). I'd somehow rather own the converted suspesnsion piece then the reconverted screwback....... Jim

Christian, A Nevsky should not come apart!!! If it does to me it is a "broken" Nevksy! Whereas some may be satisfied with a "broken" or damaged Nevsky with restored enamel in their collection I am not and that is why I will not attach a high value to it. Its as easy as that! I have turned down many orders and medals on account of their condition (unless the price was really good and that was only on an exceptional basis). Its not about having sources in Switzerland or anywhere else in the world! Its about what I asa a collector am ready to settle for and what I see as value for my money! Therefore valuation remains subjective especially when condition is not good to excellent and the debate can indeed be endless! Again, the proof of the pudding will only be in the eating! Also...because a dealer puts a price tag on an items does not mean he is right about the value! Even if three or four delears have a similar price tag on similar items does not necessarily mean that it is the correct market value. But enough about discussing values....that's the part of collecting I hate most as that is really not what I am about! Instead let me echo Dave's comment that it was tuly interesting to see the underside of the Nevsky that we would have otherwise not have had the opportunity to see. That was indeed truly educational and thanks for the sharing the pics!!!! Jim

That explains your obsession with prices!!! I hate to think of ODMs in terms of commercial items and in terms of $$$. For insurace purposes I do have my database which values items based on current market replacement values of the pieces on an annual basis. But no insurance money paid to me in the event of their theft will ever make up for their loss! Now as always the market value of any order depends on what the most agressive buyer would pay for it on a given day. So its hard to assess as such especially for the less common ODMs. As I see it a Nevsky that has been restored (no matter how flawless) and that comes to pieces (when it should not) has something fundamentally very wrong with it (albeit it being otherwise orginal) and would not appeal to me (personally) so in my book, it would not come anywhere close in value as one in original good condition. I personally (and this is entirely subjective) would not pay the $1100 Usairforce suggested. Dave already values it at more than that. You value it at even more. So there you already have four different values, with the three non owners of the medal valuing it already significantly lower than one in good condition valued at circa $2000. The truth is that on an auction day when only I am around in the auction house, you will get much less from my bid for your order than if Dave would also be present. And this is the truth with all collectors items. Of course you;d go back home with the medal as your reserve price would not have been met! Its just so subjective when the condition is not good to excellent. What is however sure is: a) It remains a less common piece that is still of good value b) Research will always enhance its value but this depends on what story the reseach reveals c) No matter the story told by research told, all Soviet ODMs but in particular the earlier pieces will always increase in value as years go by As for pinning a real value on it..... good luck.... you'll only really know when you sell it or when one in identical condition with similar serial number gets sold!! And even then..... u'll never really know! But if you are in for a surprise, I hope it will be a good one! Jim

Not bad - you got yourself a late OGPW 2 #951880. Even more interesting is the innovative attachment on the #2132344 where Mr Georgia (possibly Mr Russia) decided he had poked enough holes in his good clothes! Other than that its a standard 1985 award. The 3 OGPW's with docs are also standard 1985 awards and the Red Star is potentially a long service award (?). The afghanistan medal I somehow never cared much about and have also totally ignored. Beats me why! $800 for a #3 RB mmmm...... Let me just say that if its not original (which is my guess!! ) you'd be 800 bucks poorer with nothing to show for it. Wise to have kept away. Now forget the medals... did you vacation in Georgia? What took you there and how was it? Surely not high up on my holiday list although the food and to a lesser extent, the wines could be rather enticing. Jim

I have been going through this thread and I must say that I feel sorry for the cold reception Kilka was given. I think that at the end of the day, whether an item is fake or not will remain to a very large degree a matter of judgement unless the medal is observed. Of course, there are pointers which can or cannot indicate the veracity of an award. However, contradicting arguments on authenticity, should not a) provoke any negative feelings or b) have members get into a pissing war against eachother. The idea is that we exchange ideas and walk away all the wiser. Getting duped into buying a fake order or medal is not the end of the world. It happens to some more than to others, but it happens especially in this world when medals are judged based on computer images. If your going to spend money based on such images get ready to write some off. Unless of course there is a COA or unless you actually handle the piece yourself. Reputable dealers, although sometimes more expensive will at the end of the day give you certain guarantees should the item turn out to be fake which you may otherwise not get. But at the end of the day the arguments should be positive. I have said it a few times but the Red Bible which remains I think the first greatest contribution to the collecting of Soviet medals is now sadly outdated and has always lacked other details on say, award booklets for starters. I blame the red bible for the early lack of collectors enthusiasm in picking up their awards with documents. However, it remains a milestone worthy of praise. However, if one collects by the bible, then one is losing out and missing opportunities to obtain original items which were not yet observed at the time. This is nevertheless to be done with caution as at the end of the day a good fake can be mistakenly considered as a different variety. And I think this will by and large remain a recurring point in collector circles as long as the quality of fakes is improving. We all await a very overdue update of the red bible or its eventual replacement by something definitive and comprehensive - even if only for a few years!! As for the Order of Honour and the Order of the Red Banner in this thread, I personally would also have stayed away from them. I do not like the obverse of the red banner, its enemalling and overall quality. I do not like the mintmark on the reverse either. Same really applies to the Badge of Honour which I would almost suspect to be a converted flatback from the mint mark and the quality of the riveting. With such early types it is a hard to say without careful close up analysis (preferibly hands on) and study of more detailed and close up pics. Still, I would personally not consider these as keepers! With all respect to everyone who differs in opinion. Jim

I guess we all are lost in translation sometimes. No worries! Jim

End of 1944 I'd say.... guys? Jim

I think you did well to stay away from it especially given the booklet (cannot comment on the scans as they are too unfocussed). I am not one that is obsessed with price .... if you want something bad enough for whatever reason you will pay up! But if I may ask... what is an attractive price for this "ORB 3" in Georgia? More curious really Jim

I hate to be a wet blanket but the number of bars I have seen that have been merely put together (and sometimes really badly) somehow quells my enthusiasm. When buying a group like that with no documentation at all, do not pay anymore than you would have for the indivdual medals. The sum of the parts is to equal the price paid for the whole! Sadly groups can be assembled, disassembled and re-assembled. Of course serial numbering may allow for research which can confirm the veracity of the gorup (or part of it) but the absence of any award booklets leaves much more room for doubt! Other than that.... pretty bars nonetheless! Jim