JimZ

Cheeky Soviet!!! !!!!!!! But true...Do tell us Christian??

Even if its an Anniversary medal please post it!!!! We want to see the pics of your first loves!!! We want to see your first flirts with Russian ODMs Jim

Fair enough Chip! I guess there's charges and court martial for things like that !! What I did find really interesting and caught my eye (I forgot to mention it!!!!) is how the pockets at the bottom of his tunic seems to be stuffed with erm....some goodies or other. Is that the shape of the tunic or really something that the tunic could not hide?? Jim

Not scratched out serial numbers !!! Please not that!!!! Surely its more criminal to deface any ODM then trade it! They must see that! I think sellers might, at some stage start to disclose serial numbers only to their inner circle of buyers....or maybe even after the buyer has paid....till then Order of Lenin Serial number 153XXX to 155XXX may have to suffice. Its always an alternative to defacing the orders! In any case, with so many orders around, I seriously think the Russian resources will be busier with the more important matters to the motherland. Maybe as someone suggested, this was just a warning shot fired to make the loudest noise possible ..... and scare some people away!! Jim

Yet another article: The British trading house Sotheby?s has received a request to withdraw from an upcoming auction state orders of the former Soviet Union, a Sotheby?s spokesperson told ITAR-TASS. The auction will be held in London on November 28. About 2,000 Russian works of art and objects of culture will be put up for sale. The spokesperson stressed that Sotheby?s never sold cultural and historical valuables without permission, and just for this reason the request of Russian state service for the protection of cultural heritage (Rosokhrankultura) would be examined on an urgent basis. Russian authorities demanded removing 28 lots from the auction. They include orders of Kutuzov, Ushakov, Suvorov, Bogdan Khmelnitsky, Lenin and the Order of the Red Banner of Combat. All decorations have personal numbers allowing identifying their owners. Starting prices of the Soviet orders vary from $2.000 to $130.000. The Russian side does not object to sales of orders of Imperial Russia that will be broadly represented at the auction, including the chain of the Order of St. Andrew the First Called, the price of which is $428.000. Puzzled..... No objection to Imperial Russian Orders..... because its is not serial numbered and its owner cannot be identified. Does that make someone's act of bravery any less because his ODM was not serial numbered? The logic behind this eludes me...... Jim

Interesting photo Chris. But now I ask - officially issued or unofficially altered? Curious.... Jim

So here goes..... my first baby: [attachmentid=61964] Order of the Red Star Serial number 3104095 Acquired in 1993 Fleamarket in Malta $3.00

So, seeing the posting of a first combat service medal as the start of a new collection on another thread, I thought to myself..... ....why not each of us post pics of the very first Russian order or medal that started off our fascination with Russian ODMS?? Just be sure its the very piece no matter how humble that started us on the road to total perdition...... To try to keep it simple...we post: - pics of obverse and reverse (if possible) - name of order/medal - serial number - year of acquisition - provenance (dealer/fleamarket/ebay etc etc) and country - approximate price paid at the time in USD Should be interesting Jim

I do like to glance at the "OTHER" forum once in a blue moon. Even tried to register once but my humble yahoo address is not good enough and I don't have an ISP provided e-mail address. Does not work that way worldwide! So I am happy to participate in this here forum and occasionally glance through the "other" one.... although I think there seems to be a touch more activity in here. Still one can never have enough sources of info with this hobby.... But for those of you who do...I wish you a healthy return back to your accounts Jim

[attachmentid=61883] [attachmentid=61882] Order of labour glory Variation 2?!!! Nice enamel but sorry, isn't something missing on the reverse?!!!! So far some think its worth a $100!!!

Restoring a medal bar to its former glory is a nice project. Adding on a missing medal to its ribbon is one thing. But I am not convinced the fourth medal should be added.... Just being a bit of a puritan here.... I got something about trying to keep these items as orignal as possible..... Jim

To think that it is was the advent of the machine gun that totally changed the face of modern warfare....... Lovely beast this one ! Jim

"Abandon faith all ye who enter here" Welcome Rich Jim

I really doubt that small collectors could get into any trouble although they ultimately drive the market! As for dealers, unless they are sure of the provenance of their serial numbered stocks then I could see a wee bit more of a hassle! What will this do for collectors..... nothing much. Make the high end orders tougher to find! But the FSU countries are still flowing with Russian orders and medals. Take the Ukraine for example.... Now if e-bay were disabled....that would be inconvenient! But on the other hand, sellers will find it harder to move their stocks and with less competition through auctions, sellers in FSU countries will no longer be able to sell to the whole world but only to those buyers that can get there. With demand less than supply, prices will actually come down in the FSU countries. Of course such pieces will then be resold in a market where demand will outstrip supply and a new 'profit centre' will be created! Its just a shifting of profits from one seller to another and the market will find its balance again. It always does. Now the question is, How seriously will Russia really take this? I think it has much more important internal issues to attend to before sending the 'red army' out to reclaim all its lost orders and medals...... Sealing the borders to ODMs maybe (it has!) .... but retracing and repatriating them ...... nah!!! Again, if items were stolen or obtained through criminal activity, then Sotheby did well to remove auctions. We should not sanction illegal activity. But on the other hand, an awardee or heir who owns soviet medals can decide to sell these items then it is up to them! For an act of bravery, the Soviet state (now defunct) has made an award. It is the state which should remain in debt to the awardee for his act of bravery or life. Awarding a medal can never cancel the debt that the country has towards the awardee or worse make the awardee (or his heirs) owe anything more to the state than what has already been given in the first place. Of course my logic may appear fuzzy to some but that is how I see it. I also have no doubt that some of these orders have found better homes in collections where they were displayed, researched and appreciated, then some of the cans or drawers they may have been previously kept in! Of course, this is not to detract anything from those vets who still wear their medals with pride....and rightfully so!!! Jim

We all new this was happening but maybe not on such a scale as this time! So what does the future of collecting Soviet ODMs hold in store. - Is exporting them a crime? According to Russian law yes!! - Is owning someone elses awards a crime in russia.... and out of russia? - Are Russian dealers now to be considered as "criminals"? - Are awardees who may still be alive considered as criminals if they sold their awards? And what if they gave their awards instead?. Heck....I know some one who might own the odd russian order or medal out there. Am I associating with criminals !!! Where will Russia draw the line! I mean if it cna be proved that high end groups or orders/medals are actually stolen or obtained through criminal activity, then I agree that there should be some form of claim. BUT what about the rest of the Soviet ODMs circulating in the Russian "free" market? Jim

Another article: MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti commentator Anatoly Korolev) - Russia's Federal Service for the Supervision of Mass Communication and Cultural Legacy Legal Compliance has asked for the cancellation of the announced sale of several high Soviet state awards, scheduled by Sotheby's for late November. London is surprised: why not sell Russian orders at a highly reputable international auction house if the awards' owners wish to do so? It is their personal business and certainly not the business of the government. The government has no right to decide for the owners or their heirs whether they want to sell the relics. This would have been understood if the orders had been stolen, but if everything is clear on this count, the whole problem is more ethical than legal. The officials say that the Russian law bans buying and selling state awards. Anatoly Vilkov, the spokesman for the cultural watchdog, says that the recipients of the awards - a Suvorov Order, an Ushakov Order, a Kutuzov Order, a Nakhimov Order and a Bogdan Khmelnitsky Order - lived and died in Russia, and not a single permission has ever been issued to take the orders abroad. This means Russia suspects theft and illegal trafficking. The orders, of course, have material value well into five digits for many collectors. The Lenin Order is made of pure gold, and Lenin's relief in the center - of platinum; the Suvorov Order has a gold relief on platinum field. However, there is another, more powerful, moral aspect to it. When a person is decorated, he signs an unwritten contract with the nation, saying that the state award belongs, in a sense, to the state as much as to the recipient because it marks his personal achievements as well as the glory of the entire country. Arguably, this is the key source of contention. Gone are the heroes who displayed exceptional valor and courage. Gone is the country which bestowed the awards on its heroes. Selling an order looks like selling a deed it was awarded for, like breaking a moral taboo. Maybe it is a purely Russian attitude to state awards; in any case, it is a reality Sotheby's has just woken up to. The opinions expressed in this article are those of the author and may not necessarily represent the opinions of the editorial board.

Translated: (My translation....I hope the russian members will excuse my lack of grace in translating!!) We are grateful to Sotheby's auction house for accepting the solution which shows the respect and good relations that Sothebeys has towards the Russian Federation said Anatoliy Vilkov, commenting on removal from the Sotheby's Auctions of a number of Soviet orders. The London Sotheby's auction house had, on the day before the auctions, following demand from the Russian side, removed from the its auctions 11 Soviet orders. The public relations representative of the auctions held a press service reporting to journalists. ?Yes, we confirm, that all items indicated were removed from auction" said the Sotheby's representative. ?Additional operational data confirmed, that all those rewarded had heirs who lived and live in Russia", - he said. The overwhelming majority of orders are taken into possesion by criminals, some of which at present are serving a sentence". ?We try to resolve with the agents of thes orders which we consider a priori honest acquirers, and will look to resolve with them the problem about the return of these orders to the Russian Federation" Original Russian Context: Сотбис cнял с торгов ордена 23.11.2006 11:13 | www.rian.ru Мы признательны аукционному дому "Сотбис" за принятое решение, это говорит об уважении, которое проявляет "Сотбис" к Российской Федерации и нашим взаимоотношениям, сказал РИА Новости заместитель главы Росохранкультуры Анатолий Вилков, комментируя снятие с торгов "Сотбис" советских орденов. Лондонский аукционный дом Сотбис накануне по запросу российской стороны снял с торгов 11 советских орденов, сообщил журналистам представитель пресс-службы аукциона. "Да, мы подтверждаем, что все указанные лоты были сняты с торгов", - сказал представитель Сотбис. "Дополнительные оперативные данные подтвердили, что все награжденные и их наследники проживали и проживают в России, - сказал Вилков.- Подавляющей частью орденов мошенническим путем завладели преступники, которые в настоящее время отбывают наказание". "Мы будем добиваться встречи со сдатчиками этих орденов, которых мы считаем априори добросовестными приобретателями, и решать с ними вопрос о возвращении в Российскую Федерацию этих орденов",- добавил замглавы Росохранкультуры.

[attachmentid=61744][attachmentid=61745] [attachmentid=61747] To be noted: Reverse shows overlying pieces are not perfectly aligned. Serial number is at 7 o'clock position as opposed to 5 o'clock position Mint mark is too high and too heavily set Enamel discoloration inconsistent with original white enemal Nice 'touch' to have the screwpiece wear and tear from excess tightening..... Once again....its out there for grabs... still a bargain even if its already bid to $525 with 4 days to go till auction close!!!!

With Order of Honour #1574131 issued in 1989 (as per red bible) what its the highest order of honour observed by anybody, assuming that such orders were still being awarded into 1990....and erm....does anyone actually know when these orders were last awarded? Jim

The good news is that the group in question did go to one buyer. I did the dirty work of being the sole bidder on all items till a 'reasonable' time in Europe.... However, having to travel early I did have to get my beauty sleep but only once I saw another bidder bidding above me on ALL the parts of the group. In any case seeing that it was in good hands I could relax. I am so glad that the damage about to be done by an unscroupulous selller was undone and even if the group rests with someone else....it still is a group! I can live happily with that. Jim

I know that I say I would like to keep this thread as short of words as possible as pics usually speak louder than words can in this case. Also, an accumulation of pics will serve as a fast refernece database although somewhat messy in view of the order of posts.... However, just to stress that some items, even when not the best copy/fake on the market do fool a lot of buyers out there. Some of these are just naive or inexperienced, others believe that a missing original can be replaced by a less expensive gap filler.... and some sadly believe they are buying the original thing. Do not be fooled by a low starting price as inevitably someone pays good money for nothing! And what I find more concerning are those good quality copies that are sold with documents and can be intentionally bought with the aim of putting them back on the market as originals. Once again...lots of buyers out there who will just lap up this stuff. Like collections were built in a day anyways!!!

[attachmentid=61432] [attachmentid=61433] Downright junk if u ask me! Seems irresistable to fakers/copiers. But as I have not seen this 'golden' variation before I thought I'd post.

Nice photo! How you can find this information so fast and in so short a time is absolutely amazing and I cannot resist commenting! I am really impressed! Jim

Enjoy. http://cgi.ebay.de/Orden-Fuer-den-Dienst-i...1QQcmdZViewItem Jim

Both the 2 upper pics in my scan are genuine Orders of Service to the Motherland 3rd Class which are well within the issued range. The upper left hand one is in my posession with documented research. The ones in the lower red boxes are the fakes currently on sale. The comparison is made solely to show the quality of the white enemal which instantly indicated the inferior quality of these three pieces.