JimZ

[attachmentid=58130] [attachmentid=58131] To the best of my knowledge the Order of Friendship of Peoples had not been faked.... Yet I came across this piece. Admittedly the pic of the obverse is not clear enough but the lettering, sickle and hammer and the green wreath as well as the rays in the red star are not convincing. The gold also looks flat. I do not believe any variations of this order to exist at least none I have read about or come across. As a result of the points that I mentioned I think that this piece already does not add up. What does however concern me most and what looks completely wrong in this piece is the riveting on the obverse. Either the medal was taken apart and the 'valuable' pieces removed and replaced....or its some bogus manufacture from scratch. All I can say is - stay away from this particular piece and any others with similar rivet work. If anyone has more info on fakes or copies of the Order of Friendship of Peoples please post. This is the first time I came across one like this!!

Yup.. got home and I had my motherhood medals as per PMD Switched them round! Yippee.... Something I would have probably never bothered myself about where it not for this thread Jim

[attachmentid=58106] [attachmentid=58107] Fake 20 Year of RKKA medal above. Please note the suspension ring with small (drilled hole), the big rays beneath the enamel (which should be much finer) and the enamel itself. The texture of the medal is of course very wrong and far too rough under magnification Its not a distressed medal but a cast one!! - Its got a great many things not going for it.... including the "gold plating" on the #20 (XX)!!!!

I can't find it but I'll keep both it and you in mind Jim

I have not seen this medal progessionally faked as that vairation is a rather common one. However, what i have seen is a very crappy copy of it that has been going around sold as a repro. But I think the quality is indeed so bad that that a) its hard to mistake for an original and b) I doubt it has had any takers! However if I can find it again I'll post pics of it on the "Fake orders and medals database" ( http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11742 ) Regards Jim

Funny - these are 2 medals I bought so long ago - more as a duty to complete the set Motherhood set I must admit!! I really do not know how I allocated them in my collection and look forward to going home tonight to check that out. They're the kind of medals I bought and just forget about. I must however say that I think that the obverse of the Maternal glory set is ever so pretty and the Motherhood medals have something very tender about them! I hate to get sappy amongst gentlemen though! Though I must say that my preference does of course lie with military vs motherhood awards, I think that a woman worthy of some of the maternal awards (especially the Mother Heroine title with 10 kids or more) would be one hell of a force to reckon with. I am surprised how the Russians never thought of putting a regiment of Mother Heroines up against the Tigers in Kursk! A toast to all mothers! Jim

My apologies too for the bout of humour earlier.... of course the idea really was...how far would fakers take it if they were allowed. Which is all the more reason why there should be some sort of consensus based on fact as to what the highest ORB number is? Jim

Gerd....Please check....I am sure you must have the "69" and are keeping it to yourself...come on....show it off Jim

I had the ribbon bar for this once in my collection of British medals - I can swear that I never saw the medal itself until today! Sexy indeed...I like 'em "dirty"

I believe the item to be a Gilwell woggle. This is in fact used to tie the scout's scarf around his neck. I found this explanation on the net: "In the early days of Scouting, the scarf was fastened at the throat by a knot but, in 1920 or 1921, the scarf slide came into use. It is said the name "woggle" was invented for it by Mr. Gidney, the first Camp Chief of Gilwell. In those days, the lighting of fires by friction was very much of a novelty and, for many years, was demonstrated on Wood Badge courses. The main piece of equipment for this activity was a leather thong. When not being used for fire-making, the thong was long enough to make a two strand Turk's Head Woggle, which is what we wear today. " The wood badge course as I remember it is taken by advanced scouts and upon succesful completion I believe they are awarded a leather Gilwell woggle and a special scarf with some leather/wooden attachment/ neck tie. I never made it beyond the first of three courses for the woodbadge......I dropped out before. Jim

Ed - Maybe as we speak right now, someone at the mint has undertaken some "modest retooling" and is currently stamping that ORB#69. Might be very collectible and for other reasons too! Kidding aside, someone did start a thread asking what it would cost to got to the mint and get your own order on request upon presentation of a sum of money... Wonder what happens if someone goes to ask for...say...an ORB with any number... 2 - 9 for arguments sake! Hard cash may be cold but it does seem to make the world go round at times! As for the integrity of the Russian mints....I know that I am not even giving them the benefit of the doubt! But yes the question remains...where are these high numbered awards....and if they are nowhere to be found, then there must be photos or some other sort of evidence....if ever they existed. Jim

And the bible says: "The lowest serial number recorded for a number "7" Red banner is number 6. Rarity Rating R5. A number 7 Red banner has been noted with serial number 9 and a number 8 with the serial number 5 as well. Rarity Ratings: R5." Can someone ask PMD for futher explanations of what "recorded" and "noted" mean?. Is recorded observed? Does "recorded" mean that in archives we can find that someone was given a 7th award? That still does not mean that its got #7 on the front (let alone 8 or 9). Also...what does "noted" mean? If these can be clarified its already one step forward. Also, if we had to hit the archives what would we find? A 6th award only? A 7th, 8th or 9th? At least we would then that somebody was in fact awarded the Red banner so many times. Of course then the quest for documentary evidence in the form of perid photos should follow. With the utmost respect to the experts....when pieces of such rarity are discussed it should be documentation and research that does the talking and they should be clear on this. If any room for speculation is left, if shadows are cast, then someone will eventually create and put the piece on the market.... If and when there is no evidence, experts are expected to be be clear about this and state the fact categorically. We will love them even more for that! Jim

[attachmentid=57932] [attachmentid=57937] [attachmentid=57938] By far not an expert on the Nakhimov medal as I have yet to buy this medal. But lets hit the PMD description of observed originals. My count of the dots on the obverse and reverse does not tally with the original. Fake! Unless of course there should there be evidence of variations, then this prima facae test is rather effective! And of course may I add that at first glance I do not like the suspension ring itself.

[attachmentid=57929] [attachmentid=57930] [attachmentid=57931] Here is the other lab glory 1 selling without booklet. I absolutely hate the patina on the reverse (which seems polished possibly to remove that 3rd class Var 1 serial number). Hand engraved numbers seem too large but you cannot hold that against the engraver....or can you?! Too much vodka when he engraved the number so close to the rivets... I do not think so!! The Enamel looks heavy and dark. Of course its not that easy to call... and the serial number on this piece is not overboard either... BUT as this is the brother of the one I listed earlier.... I'd still stay clear away from this piece.

Christian I already proposed that this discussion be picked up elsewhere! The rules of this thread are to be as follows if it is to work out: 1) This thread is aimed to expose fakes orders and medals. Please add on to it if you have material that you have seen available for sale and want to report. 2) Only post if you a) have new material to add and b) want to add something about specific pieces 3) Do not specifically name or indicate where fakes are found but just expose the pieces and use this as a reference library for anyone wanting to check listed pieces 4) Do not double post pics already posted 5) If you want to discuss anything else, kindly paste a link of the thread the discussion is to be continued in and take it elsewhere. Otherwise this thread will become too cumbersome for users and will not achieve its original purposes. Its simple - stick to the rules and keep this thread for what it was intended. For that, I thank you all! Jim PS - And for crying out loud lets not use bold text or caps!

Yes Dolf. Agreed 100 percent that there are varying expert opions! Whereas I personally chose to take anything above number 6 award with more than a pinch of salt, we should pick this up on the red banners thread.....very very willingly . Notwithstanding my personal view that anything above the number 6 award is scary and probably fake.... at least in the hands of us common mortals, the mint mark and the suspension ring I believe are sufficient enough to disqualify this particular piece. Jim

[attachmentid=57690] [attachmentid=57691] Order of Red Banner 7th award - $9,800. What does one say to that! Where does one even start?! The sad thing is that I believe in market economics and in this world...demand will equal supply. Lets hope that posting this piece makes it just that little bit harder. Jim Oh...I am on the look out for a redbanner numbered....lets see... "13" - Unlucky for some? Definitely will be when it somehow mysteriously surfaces out of nowhere. You think i'm being cheeky? All you need are a few silly people to buy each higher award produced..... Its a big world!

Yes Christian, you can find it cheaper elsewhere and its from the same guy! The point of this thread is not to find the best priced fakes but to expose them, and where possible pin them up together with serial numbers when we have them, thus leaving them here for posterity. Nor would I like to make this thread personal and expose indivdual sellers. I am trying to target fake items not black dealers. That homework is up to the individual collectors. However, having a reference framework to check with as much info on fake pieces as possible will help! Fakes come on the market, not only in different ways but sometimes its the same bad penny cropping up. So if anyone is adding to the thread please add new info and do not dupliate existing info or pics. Otherwise its gonna be a real mess. Thanks Guys! And do keep the info coming. Its a collective effort here. Jim

Today mythbusters brings to you: [attachmentid=57651] [attachmentid=57652] [attachmentid=57653] So....note the wrong stamp on the booklet denoting Gorby as president before he was appointed as one in 1990. If the booklet is a fake and I can bet anything the medal too is fake...especially with a serial number as high as 2195! That red enamel must glow like something out of CSI under a black light! This is one of the easiest orders to fake. Apply gold plating on a 3rd class var 2 and enamel it....buff out the serial number and try to rip somebody off. I'd only buy a first class with a COA...that is why I do not have one (apart from it not being the most common piece around!!!) Not only - but Andrei has helped me on this one also confirming, not only the wrong stamp and the high serial number but more importantly....the fact that the booklet itself is the wrong one for the Order of Labour Glory itself! Thanks for the Info! I hope this saves some unaware bidder $3,850 on one of our lovely auction sites! Sadly the gent in question had a second one without booklet selling at just under $2,000 which seems to have disappeared. Sorry to the buyer....but if this guy is pushing a fake with a booklet, my guess is he'd also push a fake without a booklet...... Jim

Mmm... not sure if someone hinted at this earlier on....and I am not sure if I am catching this thread from the right angle....but the following statement is my personal view. I do not feel that a Hero of the Soviet Union and Hero of Russia are one and the same thing. I admit that I do not know where the statutes may differ if they do at all....but as I see it, the system itself, the govenrment, the country and its values and mentality...and agendas.....everything is pretty much different from what it was pre 90s. Somewhere along the line, I feel that something was lost in the transition from CCCP to Russian Federation...maybe lost is the wrong word ... but there have been changes (some for the better and some for the worse). But I cannot help not to look at both titles with different feeling. Of course, a recent Hero of Russia like Gennady Lyachin, captain of the Kursk awarded the title poshumously is hero material. To now have Russia give the same title to him as they gave to an athlete cannot be right! Jim (I got my flak jacket on...just in case!)

When u consider the price of some russian awards an extra $45 is not that much. I like pics. Jim

I was looking at some Russian medal and order displays on another thread which as always....I loved.... For I am sucker for russian orders and medals and display photos! But I am always asking myself the following question - "What is the best way of storing/displaying medal collections?" Until a few years ago, my medals were kept in acid free paper in closed boxes/drawers. Nice to have but I was not really appreciating them. Over the years I moved some of my medals into plastic medal wallets, still keeping these out of the light. Not the prettiest thing if you like to look at your collection and enjoy it. Two years ago I moved a large part of my medals and orders into a frame with a raised glass. The medals are attached to the backing by plastic coated wire (to prevent contact of different metals which accelerates corrosion) and these are hung in neat rows. Of course they are in positions where i can glance at them from my sofa whenever I feel like (which i admit is few times a day! ) However I make sure that they are out of direct sunlight which would of course totally kill the ribbons. So basically my 2 formulae are: 1) plastic medal wallets in closed boxes/drawers 2) closed frames in average lit room out of direct sunlight I have also contemplated jewelry boxes with several drawers, although one would need quite a few of those In summary - my ideas are to: 1) avoid too much light 2) avoid contact with ever changing city air containing fresh pollutants 3) handle with cotton gloves to avoid skin oils coming in contact with medals and ribbons 4) keep them in their original condition without cleaning, polishing etc. I'd appreciate knowing how you folks are storing and displaying your medals and orders. Regards to all! Jim

Now that Ed mentions paper ones I recall come across them once before on Russian medals. Of course these were covered in clear plastic! One cannot imagine the paper lasting long in any rain downpour without the ever protective plastic coat. Although ribbon bars are not my cuppa, its interesting to think there may be a few of the hand painted ones around. I'd have thought they'd definitely be an exception rather than the rule. Again.... very interesting! Jim

Aha!!! Hand painted!.......I see. ...that explains a lot. So thise ribbon bars are indeed a case of Russian ingenuity! I initially thought they were bits of coloured plastic somehow attached together to form the ribbon colours but of course painting is simpler! Duh! Thanks for the info on the 25 year anniversary. I always had mixed feelings about it and never really considered a medal but just a pin. But having said that, although the government took the time to print a booklet and issue a pin, seems like they did not take enough time. As Ed hinted, it probably meant more to the awardees than it did to the Government. Interesting indeed. Jim

Gerd....Doc...I hate the plastic ribbon bars...Sorry!!! Just my opinion! BUT....out of curiosity....are these in any way official issues or cases of russian ingenuity to have the perfect ribbon that does not stain (but chips instead)? Always interesting to know more....hate them or love them. Re the pin for the 25 year anniversary...I of course have this pin as part of two of my groups. However, I never understood this pin. Was a 5 year anniversary not sufficient enough to merit a medal and so a pin was issued instead. Was it awarded in the same manner as the 20 and 30 year annniversary medals were? Thought I'd ask since we're on the subject.... Jim