JimZ

Some weeks back I was collecting data regarding the Order of the Badge of Honour, Red banner of labour and the Order of Friendship of Peoples. I am always sorry to see that labour and non militaty orders are always ins the shadow of their military counterparts although that is very understandable. Regrettably I cannot add much to the serial numbers submitted above for the Order of friendship of peoples. In the case of the Red banner of labour, the information obtained is not yet sufficient to submit. Below are the serial numbers and award dates I have managed to obtain for the Order of the badge of honour. Please notice some overlapping of serial numbers in the 70s. I will be looking to update this list as I obtain further scans/info in rel to the Badge of Honour booklets. Serial # Award date 102870 11/12/1948 268296 04/07/1957 276582 22/03/1966 285778 31/12/1965 403455 29/07/1966 407314 1966 * 414086 26/08/1966 428663 1966 * 459655 1966 * 484227 12/12/1967 552929 08/04/1971 569529 12/12/1973 673808 1971 * 618531 08/04/1971 795733 08/04/1971 815702 1971 * 913281 27/02/1974 966957 13/12/1972 1144887 24/12/1977 1192788 10/03/1976 1200059 06/04/1976 1212055 04/031980 1293890 22/12/1977 1297935 05/05/1981 1435598 23/02/1981 1511410 22/07/1985 1557761 13/08/1986 1574131 04/05/1989 * DATE AND MONTH ON ORDER BOOKLET NOT VISIBLE IN SCAN ANYONE WHO CAN CONTRIBUTE MORE TO THIS COMPILATION OF SERIAL NUMBERS ANS AWAR DATA PLEASE SUBMIT YOUR INFO AS FOLLOWS ON THE FOLLOWING THREADS: Order friendship of peoples http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10160 Order of red banner labour http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10145 Order of the badge of honour http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10147 Thanks and regards, Jim

Thanks for the pic posts. Is the white enemalled surface slightly stippled? What, if any criteria was used to award it and in what quantities? What other instances are there for similar revolution related awards to have been issued and any pics that can be posted. Alas such awards, although very interesting, fall outside my very specific area of collection and study so its good for me to find out more about them! Jim

Cool Doc! In the meantime.....Any of the heavyweight collectors or dealers out there ever had documented groups including these variation medals in their posession? Jim

Erm Ron...Hi! ... sure you don't mean Doc instead??? Jim

I have noticed that the "Soviet & Eastern Block Orders, Medals and Decorations" has a vast wealth of information spread all over the place. I would like to propose that we establish a thread in parallel to the "Fake orderbooks" to serve as a database for orders and decorations on the market that are fake or suspected as being such. Ideally if members can post pics of fakes or suspected fakes for member review and comment, we can have all future info concentrated in one area withinn the forum. Appreciate comments and suggestions in this regard from the long standing members of this community of collectors and I hope this idea can both take off as well as be of assistance to whoever needs the info to be contained in this database. Many thanks, Jim

Thanks Andreas So technically an order book can be issued in 1945 and have orders awarded even so many years later. That is interesting from the point of view that fakers can wreak havoc on the order books if they have an idea of the serial number sequencing of orders and medals. Which will in turn of course make it even harder for us collectors to decide between the genuine group + award document and the 'fabricated' group + tampered booklet!! Of course the proof of this cake will be in the researching! But sometimes it may be too late to do anything at all about it...unless one has a lifetime guarantee/refund should that group prove to be fake! Jim PS. On this note I would like to start a new thread called "Fake Orders and medals database" to compliment the "Fake booklets" thread. I hope this idea can take off and perhaps, in this way, have an in house reference of what the market is throwing at us.

[attachmentid=56145][attachmentid=56143][attachmentid=56144] I was out on patrol and I've come across the above..... alas I cannot bring larger photos or a focussed photo of the '3rd award'. Serial numbers 10764 for the 3rd award and 926 for the 4th award....so far sounds good. What about the fact that 926 (#4) can date anywhere between 1944 and 1948 (overlapping of serial nos) whilst 10764 (#3) is probably a 1970s award..... is my logic right? Does that rip the booklet apart? Now to look at the medals without much detail....does the patination look terrible. Mint marks... Andrey? .... Gerd? .... Comments? I look at the obverse and I cannot say that I particularly like the shape of the star, the torch head and flame and especially the shape of the suspension ring! Nor do I like centre 'bead' under the number which seems too long. Then again, I was denied larger and different pics and once again....this is merely observation regrettably and not hands on examination! Now as a result of all this I have a query that I would like a reply to......When a soldier was issued an 'Ordenskaya Kneeshka' I suppose he kept this all along and it was usual practice to update this booklet as the soldier receieved new orders or numbered medals. Is that the case? Technically, is it feasable to say that a soldier working starting his career in the war, could have an Order booklet issued for his first red star or bravery medal and then proceed into a 20 something year career in the Red Army with the same Order Booklet being updated with any subsequent numbered awards that might have been awarded to him...... Regards! Jim

Interesting discussion. As a collector I find it important to clearly define whether or not these medals were ever issued and bestowed on recipients or whether they were kept in a box in the mint (until some time in the 1990s). My perosnal reason for this would be that whereas I am a keen collector of variations, I will draw the line on a medal (or variation thereof) that has not been awarded. Personally such a medal would not be relevant to my collectation. Of course I would expect many (especially variation collectors) to disagree with me. Until today I read this thread I had no reasons to doubt that such medals had been issued by the mint but I was also under the impression that they had been awarded. I consider the challenge as to whether or not they were actually awarded very important as it is part of a learning process. My questions would be as follows: Are there any documented groups with these mint error medals? Have the erroneously issued medals been documented by mint in some archives etc. When is the earliest mention of these medals and what is the source? In many ways I start to get the same uncanny feeling about as I have about the so called gold variation of the military veterans. Whereas I or others have seen pics of this medal in collections, I have yet to see (or hear someone who has) proper documentary evidence theroef (period photos of awardees with this medal would be a lovely source - Of course...where will we find photo evidence of an awardee wearing these campaign medals back to front???!!!) Regards, Jim

Thanks guys! If u have pics of a genuine piece do take the trouble to scan and post....or better....if anyone has a genuine piece and can actually post his pics - This can hardly look like the real Mc Coy..... which must be a real beauty! Thanks. Jim PS - Good to see you back Doc

[attachmentid=56001][attachmentid=56000] I came across this item initially thinking it could be a red banner - apparantly not. I am baffled... as I have never seen such a piece before. What should probably be enamel is not entirely convincing at first glance ... but the design is intriguing as is the screwback. (I am trying to get more pics of this). Does anyone have any ideas? It reads "Proletariat of the world unite..... warriors of the red guards and red partisans" I use 'warriors' in my translation for lack of a better word.... maybe 'fighetrs' might be more approriate.... Regards, Jim

Thanks Gerd. In fact I had already reviewed Andrei's site prior to posting when I was trying to match the obverse. But I should give the site a much more detailed look in particular with regards to mint marks vs serial numbering....that's my homework for this week! From what you mentioned, I am concluding that I put too much focus and effort looking at the obverse of this medal (which of course still works) when the reverse is probably less complicated to read and tells the story much faster if you know what to look for!!!

The quality of the mint marks look slightly different between 3 pieces....but they all got the same ugly torch flame. Which now explains why I could not match it to documented variation anywhere. Its impressive to see so many around and really makes one wonder....... Jim

Erm...... before I could even type my next set of queries you replied Andrei! WOW!!

Thanks Gerd and Andrei. Somebody paid around 400 bucks for that piece and seller was guaranteeing as original! Sure....a guarantee is to be taken at face value unless it comes from someone reputable or unless it implies a full money back guarantee with no questions asked if piece is found to be original or not. For the buyers sake I hope he had the latter and not only the former guarantee!!!!! So please explain to me.... the piece tries to portray itself as what should be a type 2 var 2 which falls within observed ranges 21414 and 82365 (I tried to attribute it as closely as per the PMD classification) - Looking closely at the mintmark, the M sees to be written differently could imply that the actual lettering on the mintmark is different ....more like the type 3? Is that observation correct? The serial numbering is engraved in an unsual manner I agree but what are the chances that these hand engraved pieces could vary? The reverse does looks highly polished and the welding not the prettiest around.... Also would you think that a piece like this would be manufactured from scratch or is it a butchered type 3 as you hint at the serial number being removed and replaced.....hence suspension ring chopped off and screw soldered on...... sounds almost like a sex change...no murder!!! I still hate that torch and I still cannot track it to another known variation.... Is there a fake database thread around for russian pieces like there are in other sections? It seems that although my one question was answered I have another 10!! My regards, Jim

[attachmentid=55764] Its not mine Gerd. I was just watching it and studying it like I find myself doing far too often! However I still do not like the torch - if you look closely and compare it to other documented awards the flames look rather different to me...narrower. But as usual, one may end up nit picking on the little details which scream fake/repro when a glimpse of the whole of the order may be screaming louder - "original!" And of course....nothing will ever beat handling the piece!!! With all the fakes at hand I really believe that I have started to nitpick excessively and have become real choosy and I get the feeling that more often than not this backfires. I protect myself from buying 5 fakes and miss out on x originals! I have been collecting Russian medals for almost 17 years now and what once seemed certainties are fast becoming very grey areas! And I do not think it will get any better! Re high #ed red banners I would love feedback. Its an area where I definetely need some enlightenment! Regards, Jim

On another note but still speaking of red banners: [attachmentid=55579] Would anyone agree that the torch flame, top of the flagpole and the hammer and sickle look wrong on this piece or is it just my eyes that have gone wrong from staring too much at my screen!! Jim

I was admiring the group of 5 ORBs on another thread when I had this question I have been meaning to ask in a whole. I guess this is the right place. It seems that 6th, 7th and 8th awards of the redbanners do exist (from what i read in the red bible). Apart from of course probably never being up for sale and costing an absolute bomb if they were, my questions are as follows: Who were the recipients of these high number ORBs and were these just service awards? PS's Echoes of War covers #5 awards...mostly service!......what about higher awards which i suppose would have come about after? Anyone can throw any light on this for me pls. Thanks. Jim

Wow.....I can understand you spending hours in there. Gotta go visit one day!!! The 5 red banners absolutely blew my mind away....do you have a photo of all his awards...I can see at the top of the pic 3 orders of Lenin.... pls say you have a photo of the whole group!!! Pls pls pls Jim

Very interesting thread! I must confess these medals are new to me....or rather I am new to them! I will re-read and study this thread again with great interest..... Jim

In the early days of this thread, a couple of us backed out when things were still civil...just!! . Its a pity really, because inspite of my being very seriously aggravated by the tone that was being adopted as the thread developed, I was still interested in sitting quietly on the fence (where others sat initially before stepping into the forum) and following what this thread would churn out!! Let those of us who have lessons to learn form this, learn them before meeting in the next heated thread. Jim

And WOW for that uniform Mike! Not my period or line.....but WOW!! Guess its one of those uniforms of which there could never be many around.....1913 Imperial Marine in torpedo division....!!!!

Now we're talking the same language!! mmm....I would not completely diss Seinfeld either although yes, a different genre. Pity he does not show on the Swiss telly now that u reminded me of him!

Relax Dolf! My comment was in good faith and you really did not need to take offence as none was intended. So apologies in case u need them - Like I said its the pic of the duraglit can and the cotton that made me laugh hysterically after other members voiced their shock at the mention of such a product! And I honestly thought you'd also come to see the humour of it all! Of course I laugh at Monty Python sketches - Not everyone does!!! And don't we all have our own pet hates....me included!! If u read my comments well u would see my (and alas very sad) admission that I really did fudge a couple of pieces many years back when I was a teenager. Guilty as charged for having polished and cleaned brass fittings and medals as well as silver ones....I cry when i think of my old British WW2 stars and medals. I really believed at the time that each item should look like its parade day in 10 minutes time. I was young and very foolish! The experiences learnt many years back when I was into collecting something so much bigger than me has at least given me the experience to properly deal with my my soviet medal collecting. I can sort of handle and live with a dirty ribbon especially if these are old 50 or 60 year old ribbons on pieces that had, say an original rectangular suspension. I can live with a bravery or combat merits medal that has tarnished and devoloped a patina. In my mind cleaning will always minimally damage a piece....even if microscopically as the very act of cleaning means at least a minimal amount of friction between surfaces or application of chemical substance and I will not make the same mistakes I made in the past! When it comes down to my medals I will say again that I am a 'dirty' guy and that 'dirty' is good! And yes I did read your comments where u back stepped and said "I belive this product is definetely more appropriate for solid metal items, and only when it's absolutely necessary to remove dirt" My opinion is that is NEVER really necessary to use it! As for your last comments on veterans cleaning and polishing their medals - Sure.. polish and mount them for show....but if I have the choice between an old uncleaned piece that has lay in a drawer as to one that has been polished and shined over the last 50 years.....I go for the first one...anyplace....anytime. Regards, Jim

Its an oldish thread.... but i swear I was up in hysterics and both laughed and cried for well over 5 minutes upon seeing the photo of the duraglit can and cotton especially after members voiced their shocked comments and dissed the idea! But HM recommondation realy took the biscuit! Its the just the way the thread weaved itself and I am sure lines crossed in the process!! Like many others I ventured into cleaning the odd piece or two in my 'younger' days when shiny was good! Yes yes.....I used Duraglit as well inspite of my hysterics....and it gave a darn good shine...as well as the need for constant cleaning thereafter once I messed with the natural order of things! ! But today I am almost 15 years wiser and am now a 'dirty' guy.....in that I am a firm believer in patina. The less cleaning the less wear and tear and abrasion and the better the definition of the piece. Also the applied protection of the piece stays put and reduces corrosion. And when a piece has some durt....I wonder from which battlefield this may have come...not necessarily a battlefield if the previous owner was a careless dirty bugger.....but who knows! Jim