Gordon Craig

The reverse of the Professional Firefighters 1974 30 Year medal with Bronze Wreath.

Zsolt, Thanks for reminding me who the photos belong to. I had put your photo in my archives but neglected to keep track of where I had found it or I would have advised in the post where it came from. Thanks for your understanding. Here is a picture of the 1974 30 year Bronze Medal with Wreath for a Professional Firefighter from my collection. Regards, Gordon

Uwe, Thanks for the info. Collectors outside of Germany don't see that many variations in cases. Nice to know there are that many. Regards, Gordon

Grant, I've never seen one in a black lined case. It looks as though the interior of the red lined case is recessed for the award but the black interior is not. The interior should be recessed for this award. Are the cases themselves the same? IE the same vintage/time frame? If the balck interior is not recessed to fit the shape of the award I would say there is something wrong here. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, Interesting post. I do not recognize the badge pinned above his right breast pocket. The only award I can be sure of on his tunic easily is the left breast pocket which is for the Grand Cross for the Order of Merit for the Hungarian Republic, Military Grade. Only 15 Grand Crosses can be awarded annually. We'll work on the rest but some of the ribbons are hard to make out. Thanks very much for posting this interesting picture. Regards, Gordon

The reverse.

I have something to add here. A Bronze medal with wreath for the Volunteer Firemen for the 1974 to 1990 period. I'll post the obverse and the reverse as both differ from the 1958 version. The 30, 40 and 50 year medals were dated 1974 on the reverse. I have not seen a medal in the 5 to 20 year series dated 1974. I do not own this medal. This is a file picture from my archives. I do own a Bronze medal with wreath for the Professional Fireman. Regards, Gordon

FireMedals, Since Zsolt hasn't answered I'll give it a go. There may be some difficulty in what is said in this thread because of language problems. Basically, the medals we are dealing with here are for Professional Firemen and for Volunteer Firemen. They have nothing to do with men who may have been employed by firms to act as firemen. Don't be confused by Zsolt's use of the term "company". When he uses that term he appears to be talking about both Volunteer Firemen and Professional Firemen who were organized into "companies" at their individual locations. As you note, awarding the medals is done by the BM (short form) or Minisrty of the Interior. Many of the Firebrigade medals are the same except for the year on the back. You specifically mentioned 1958. Something we haven't covered yet but will get into later. ?VES? does translate as "years". V?LLALATI T?ZOLT?I SZOLG?LATERT? on the medals would refer to Professional Firemen not men who worked for a specific firm. ?NKENTES T?ZOLTOI SZOLG?LAT?RT (often abreviated to OT) on the medals refers to medals awarded to Volunteer Firemen. The first award was for five "V" years of service moving on to the others for continuous service beyond those 5 years. I have never come across any reference to a "Firepolice" in Hungary. Ulsterman has asked about the term "Fire Prevention Service". In the English language material we were given at the Fireman's Museum the term "Fire Prevention" was used a lot to describe the work of the Fire Brigade when actually fighting fires. It is difficult to judge from this material if there is a separate group within the Fire Brigades who concentrate on Fire Prevention versus Fire Fighting or not but I doubt it. Fire Prevention usually forms a large part of the work done by Fire Brigades no matter what country you look at. There are two different types of collar insignia worn during the period we are studying and one of the English speaking firemen we talked to at the museum indicated that those with the firetruck on their collars were fire fighters while those wearing the other symbol were involved in fire prevention. As I said earlier, I am not sure this is a fact or just a misunderstanding in translating Hungarian to English. Something still to be worked out. Regards, Gordon

Zsolt, Thanks for your great explanation of the Fireman's medals. I would like to add one more comment here. The medal pictured in this post is numbered on the back with the number of the badge worn by the fireman it was presented to. Regards, Gordon

Zolt, Thanks for your comments. I knew they were Torzsgarda pins but didn't bother translating the names on the badges. I guess that I should have. Regards, Gordon

Charles, The Oklevel I have for this award is dated 1969 and was given out as a celebration of the 24th year since the liberation of Hungary. I think that probably answers the question but it would really be nice to have some contact with someone who had been in the Munkasor. Regards, Gordon I need to modify slightly what I said here earlier. The Oklevel was awarded for good service etc, although it does not specify five years of service, during the celebration of the 24th year since the liberation of Hungary. Not specifically to celebrate the 24th anniversary.

Dan, There is one available at the moment. One of only two that I have seen. I have been debating about buying it and you have just made up my mind for me. I'll pick it up for you today and we can dsicuss price later. Regards, Gordon Charles, Re the "Five Year Itch" star. My case does not have the inscription on the top so it would have been an "at a boy" award. I think I'll save posting mine until I get back next week as I now have an award document for one. Cheers, Gordon

Order of Victory, If I understand correctly, you recognize the badge associated with this document but do not know what the purpose of the document is. Correct? If so, here is my answer. 1-The carrying document pictured above allows the wearer of this DDR award to prove, should they be asked to do so, that they are entitled to wear it. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, Yes this is the tunic for the Workers Militia. I suspect, as with similar organizations in other Communist controlled states, that this type of tunic was only worn by full time functionaries in the Militia. Control was held by the party and they were a large armed force. How effective they would have been is another question. You rarely see these tunics in pictures. Normally just the workers type dress with the short jacket. The Kivalo badge was not awarded for 5 years service. There was another star shaped badge for that purpose. I think I've posted it somewhere else on the forum. If I have time before we leave for Prague tomorrow I'll try and post a picture of the one in my collection. In the meantime here is one in wear from a file picture. Regards, Gordon

Rick, After a few days of staring at these pictures of ribbons and medals, plus looking at the medals in my collection, I have come to some possible conclusions. 1-The 5, 10, 15. and 20 year medals were originally produced with the straight hangers and the 30, 40 , and 50 year medals were originally produced with the triangular ribbon hanger. The book we use for reference that we refere to as the "Blue Bible" was printed in 1979 and shows both series 5 to 20, and 30 to 50 years with a triangular ribbon. The medals depicted in this book are only line drawings so not 100% conclusive. 2- We know that there are medals in the 5 to 20 year series that have triangular ribbons. There are sufficient of them out there to prove they authentic. 3- Since the triangular ribbons are considered authentic on the 5 to 20 year series we can only conclude that the ribbon style was changed sometime prior to 1979. Thanks for your question. The more I have stared at the pictures to resolve your question the more things in them I have noticed. Learned a lot that way! Regards, Gordon

The sleeve crest.

The two different Munkasor badges. Early one is the dark coloured one.

Back of the Munkasor badge showing the number.

Last week I was lucky enough to come across a dress tunic to the Munkasor. The tunic belongs to a fairly high ranking member. The term "rank" does not really apply to the Munkasor structure. The collar tabs don't indicate rank in a military sense of the word. They indicate assignment positions. There are two distinct assignment structures that I still need to do some work on before I fully understand them. There is an assignment structure for what appears to be a Headquarters Group and another assignment structure for those in the field or the rest of the country. Without an organization chart to go by I can not be sure just how this all comes together. The collar tabs on this tunic indicate the previous owner was in a group called "MOP TORZS" in the assignement Group not at a headquarters. Assignment positions range from T1 down to T12 with this collar tab indicating a level of T3. The Munkasor badge is of the early stamped type and numbered. Next to that is a Kivalo Munkasor badge. The ribbon bars is for, from the viewers left to right reads: Labour Merit Medal, Merit Medal for Socialist Labour, then a 20 year service medal. The crest on the lower left sleeve indicates the wearer was associated with the Munkasor National Men's Chorus. The shirt and tie are not authentic but are the correct colur for this uniform. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, Sorry, but I do not know what the book is in picture number 3. The museum is worth another visit and I'll try and remember to check it out while I am there. I am not sure what you mean about "three or four different types of ribbons on these type alone". Both professional and Volunteer Firemen have the same system/type of ribbon colours. A red ribbon with the Hungarian national colours and a light grey stripe next to them. Sometimes in the centre of the ribbon and sometimes on the edge. It is a complex subject and rather than go into it hear I'll wait until I post what I have already written on the Volunteer Fireman's Service Medal and then move on to the others. I thought I would have it posted by now but every time I think I am through I get some more information. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, Interesting T?rzsg?rda pins. These pins normally come with the name of the company on them as they were awarded for years of service with a specific firm. I guess these might have been awarded to someone who actually worked for the Miner's Trade Union. Take a look at my thread on T?rzsg?rda pins for more info. Regards, Gordon

Dan, I agree with Grant. You did not receive the badge pictured in the auction. There is no doubt about that. The pins at the bottom are for the hanger for indicating additional awards of this item. Regards, Gordon

Rick, These medals seem to follow this unusual pattern of straight ribbon for a cetain time period and it would seem to be the original way they were issued. In my research I have also come across these medals with the normal trifold ribbon. Of the medals inspected, the two suspension types turn up in about equal numbers although I am only talking about 10 medals here including the ones on display at the Fireman's Museum. Regards, Gordon

Ulsterman, You are right about the plethora of firemen's awards. I'll do my best to shine some light, no pun intended!, on the ones that I own. I spent time over the weekend translating stuff from the blue book on the volunteer firemen's medals with the five year bronze medal in my collection as a guide. Today I added a 10 and 20 year medal to my collection so I am a lot better equipped now to cover all the missing info in the book, and that is a lot! It will take me a few days as I want to make sure I get it right the first time. To give you an idea of how little is known about these medals, even here, the dealer I bought the 10 and 20 year medals from asked me what they were! Of course, once I told him the price went up considerably from the one I bought last week. Cheers, Gordon

coinguy89, I don't think I have any colour photos of these uniforms in wear. At least not on this computer. Most of my photo archives are stored on my hard drive in Canada. I'll have a look and see what I can find. Regards, Gordon