Gordon Craig

Gentlemen, To take a step back here. First of all, we are not questioning the fact that Herr Pohl served as a Panzer officer. Just if the collar tabs that are shown on this tunic, if seen by an person unknown to Herr Pohl, would judge him to be an artillery officer or a panzer officer. As for who issued tunics, I only have one private purchase tunic in my collection of approximately40 plus Bundeswehr tunics dating from the late 50s on. Obviously, from our individual collections we have drawn different conclusions. The fact that Uwe was issued a tunic made by a tailor and that it was paid for from his KKWb account only speaks to the issuing of one tunic. My early tunics are marked KKW and the later ones KKWb until the time KKWb stopped issuing them. This is for tunics from the rank of private to General officer. Obvioulsy the topic of who actually issued officers tunics needs more research Regards, Gordon

Gentlemen, Another illustration of artillery red and panzer pink for your reference. Regards, Gordon

Steve, You are correct that makers can differ slightly in what they make as "panzer pink" but only to a minor degree. Manufacturerers are all supplied with a sealed patterns that they are to use as an example for their production. The Technnische Lieferbingungen (TL) produced by the Bundesampt fur Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung gives very explicite directions for everything that a supplier must adhere to when making something for the Bundeswehr. Your illustration above is only good for indicating that different colours are used for different arms of the service. As a colour reference it has no relationship to the actual colours worn. You are incorrect in you statement that "all of these tunics were made by different tailors". They were in fact allmost all supplied by KKBw. Officers could purchase their own tunics but it was not the norm. Regards, Gordon

Uwe, OOPS. Not enough coffee this morning. I should know better than that. My applogies for the error. Steve, The collar tabs and the boards look to be the same colour of red on my screen and not even close to panzer. Uwe's picture of the two different colours; panzer pink and artillery red, shows this very well. It will be interesting to hear what the former owner has to say. The breast hanger certainly appears to be the correct one. Perhaps you could post a picture of the arm badge as well. Talltom, I don't agree to your comment on the different shades of pink for panzer. Panzer pink was never even close to red regardless of what year it was worn in. There are however several different shades of red for different branches but they are not close to panzer pink. Regards, Gordon

SteveL, Nice tunic and it appears that his pass to the building he worked in is attached to the left breast pocket. True? I think that Herr Pohl's memory may be a bit off here. The collar tabs and shoulder boards on this tunic are not pink for a panzer officer. They appear to be the boards and collar tabs for an officer on the General Staff which would make sense. Regards, Gordon

Uwe, Thanks for the correction. Michael, Thanks for the link to Inspekteur des Sanitätsdienstes. My applogize for getting it wrong the first time. Regards, Gordon

Uwe, Thanks for the link to the Inspekteur des Sanitätsdienstes. Very interesting. Regards, Gordon

oldlincolnian, Thanks for your interesting comments on these Romanian badges. I have visited the site you talked about and tried to strike a deal on the Hungarian badges he had without any success. Which was fine because I was ablle to get a complete setin Hungary for almmost nothing. Regards, Gordon

GRA, Normally, when you find a tunic with the private purchase, metallic embroiderd arm badge you will find that the owner has also purchased special shoulder boards. Makes a very smart looking tunic. Regards, Gordon

GRA, Nice example of some of the arm badges worn in the BW. For those who haven't studied this subject, there were strict rules about what could go where on the shield. In the regulations, the shiled is divided up intoto numerous sections with a list of what can go in that sector. The higher grade badges must be authorized by the highest authority. Individual units arm badges may be authorized by the CO, usually a General officer, but must still abide by the established regulations. That being said, reserve units took "libetties" with their design and even wore them on combat clothing which was strictly against the regs. Regards, Gordon

Very nice uniform. I have an army Generals tunic that could be the twin of this one. They would have made a great pair! Regards, Gordon

cimbieus, Thanks for the close-up pictures. Good info for the thread. Regards, Gordon

talltom, Nice private purchase visor cap. Thanks for sowing the label. Regards, Gordon

cimbineus, Ok, I see the difference on the back of #4 now. The difference in finish in #5 and #6 doesn't really show up on my monitor but #7 sure does! Thanks pointing out the variations for me. Regards, Gordon

talltom, The silver wound badge was a nice addition to an already nice uniform. The hat appears to be from a later period but looks nice with the tunic. I'd like to see a picture of the makers label in the cap please. Regards, Gordon

cimbineus, The variations in #3 and #7 are obvious but not the other. Would show them separately and point out the variations to us please. Regards, Gordon

Gentlemen, I bought these two medals, a silver and a gold, recently but I have been unable to find out anything about them. I'd appreciate any information you can give me on this particular event and who would have awarded them etc. I've just posted the gold medal as the silver is identical except for the colour. Regards, Gordon

Delis, Here is a link to a thread started by my friend Hunyadi on Hungarian daggers. He starts with an authentic dagger and you can compare it to the one you bought. I met Hunyadi when we both lived in Budapest. Regards, Gordon http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/35117-hungary-ww2-air-force-dress-daggers/page__hl__%2Bhungarian+%2Bdagger__fromsearch__1

Delis, I don't know enough about these daggers to make any firm statements but this does not look authentic to me. There have been posts on this forum in the past with pictures of authentic daggers. I'll see if I can find them and post a link to them. Regards, Gordon

Delis, You have a mixture of time frames here. My knowledge base is in the Communist era but I'll have a go at some of these as far as identification goes. I don't know prices in Canada. Only what I would pay for them in Hungary. The first two are probably current issue. #1 is probably a pilots wings and #2 is a general badge worn by all members of the Hungarian Armed Forces on the dress tunic above the right breast pocket. This particular one would probably be for an army officer. #3 could be for a wartime pilot but that is just a guess. #4 I don't know. #5 - are collar tabds for current air force wear. You have them shown upside down to the way they would be worn on a tunic. #6 - Don't know but possible Danube Flottila. #7 - don't know. #8 - don't know. #9 - looks like a dagger of some kind but the pictures are too small to make even an educated guess. #10 - again small picture makes it difficult to tell-possibly lapel pin from the Horthy era. #11 and 12 - pre-war dagger. These are heavliy faked and authentic ones are hard to find. It would take an expert, such as my friend Hunyadi, and much better pictures to judge originality. Regards, Gordon

talltom, The wearing of a cuffband during wartime was indicated on a post war ribbon bar by a small metal plaque on a ribbon. Here is an example of a ribbon bar with the KRETA cuffband shown. Regards, Gordon

Ladies and Gentlemen, As the above posts indicate, there were two would medals. One for issue to soldiers and one for issue to security forces. Here is a translation of the text from "ORDEN UND EHRENZEICHEN ÖSTERREICHS 1945 - 1999" by GÜNTHER ERIK SCHMIDT describing the Wound medal for Secuity Forces. WOUND MEDAL For the medals for the members of the security authorities there is a different medal awarded, i.e. on the obverse the representation of two laurel leaves connected at the bottom with berries, one curved to the right and one curved to the left, the lower part of the right laurel leaf shows the location of a fracture. Along the edge of the lower medal half (under the laurel leaves) is written "IM DIENNSTE VERLETZT" (INJURED IN SERVICE). The back of both medals (gold and silver)shows the eagle of the federal coat of arms in the form represented on the military service medals. (Fig. 42, 43) The ribbon is field green and shows on both sides, one per, a 5 mm broad red stripe. Multiple awards due to repetitive injuries is indicated by up to five red stripe(s) shown in the center of the ribbon, each red strip is only 1 mm wide. The same as the ribbon organization with the marking of multiple awards on the model of 12 August 1917 of Emperor Karl Ist wound medal for soldiers of the K.u.K. Army, which carried on the back in Latin script "for the WOUNDED SOLDIER", i.e. "LAESO MILITI". Unfortunately, I do not have a picture of one of these medals to post to the thread. Regards, Gordon

Martin, Interesting bar. Thanks for posting it and the history of this type of ribbon bar. Regards, Gordon

Uwe, Thanks for the regs on the BW. I didn't know them until you posted them. Here are the U.S. regs for comparisons so Tom can work out which BW badge to add. "The United States Army and United States Air Force issue the Flight Surgeon Badge in three ratings: Basic, Senior, and Master (Army)/Chief (Air Force). The Basic Flight Surgeon Badge is presented upon completion of initial flight surgeon qualifications, while the Senior and Master versions of the badge are presented based on years of service and number of flight hours performed as a flight surgeon. Typically, the Senior Flight Surgeon Badge is awarded after three to seven years of service, while the Master version is obtained after seven to fifteen years of service. The Senior version of the Flight Surgeon badge is denoted by a star centered above the decoration, while the Master and Chief Flight Surgeon badges display a star and wreath". Given the two sets of regulations, and considering that the U.S. Flight Surgeon badge appears to be the basic one he could wear either the bronze or the silver BW badge. Considering the rank on the BW tunic I would say the silver badge would be the most appropriate but that is up to Tom. Thanks very much for your input. Regards, Gordon

Tom, There is a problem with the medical officers uniform in post #18. He should not be wearing a BW Sanitätspersonal Tätigkeitsabzeichen with a U.S. Flight Surgeons wings. To wear U.S. Flight Surgeons wings you must be a qualified doctor and a flight surgeon. The rank and insignia on the shoulderboards would be correct for a doctor in the BW but he would then have to wear Fliegerarzt Tätigkeitsabzeichen above the right breast pocket of his tunic. Since the tunic shows a silver U.S. Flight Sugeons wings he would wear a silver Fliegerarzt Tätigkeitsabzeichen. I've attached a picture of the bronze, silver and gold BW Fliegerarzt Tätigkeitsabzeichen. Regards, Gordon