Douglas 5

Other half :

Hi Joel : Rarity scale ! You do not have it or know about it ? There is so far only one Group WMA Wehrmachts Awards that had attempted and is running a rarity or distribution stats on EK 1's and 2's . This study was started September 2004 amongst there own members population . Amongst approx 5000 active collecting members there are THREE that own a 66. marked EK2 -.... that is ONE a year ... !!! For those you can do the math ; Stats as they are : overall acuracy is not 100% the only way it can be done( guess 85%) , do to the demografics and survey population . At least it give a good idea of distribution and probability of finding one .Because of the size had to cut the chart in half . This shows the distribution . This for EK2's only!

Yes that is definately a unmarked L59 A Rettenmaier , later made 2nd frame and core die . Douglas

Nice you found one !! Hard to find . Generally speaking what would one have to fork out for a minty one , if one could find one ? Douglas

Yes David : So true : and the opposite applies as well ; A cross that does not look like the norm is shunned, even if the ring is marked , as rings are easy to replace. A date closeup of a different core on an EK2 S&L that is different . Douglas

This shows the fat 4 on my ring , ....

All four possible oriantations of the maker mark 4 :

Very nice Bill : Great : The first outward pointing ring marked '4 ' I have seen . Hard to find as the majority of S&L's are all inward pointing oriented . This seams to apply to all makers . Something possible for makers with one maker number only . Douglas

Try picture again: The large fat 4 does not fit on the ring properly compared to the lower revised , smaller and finer 4 ! [attachmentid=62693]

Hi David : Did not catch this one sooner as it was labeled K&Q , .... which in the mean time has been correctly identified as a S&L 4 . Just adding this as an interesting ad-on . Have been working on these recently just for my own EK2 and have run across a few manufacturing types or variations during the early production run of S&L EK2's . I am not that good with EK,s , lots to learn and interested mainly S&L 4 and L59 . That peticular maker mark 4 of S&L on a ring is only the 1st true one I have been able to find , one other not confirmed , amongst all I have looked at so far . Like probably with other companys , there were 'growing' pains in 1939 , to find out what works and what does not . That maker mark is a shallow flat base die with a large number and as it appears to me a very unsuitable design to use on a thin 'round' ring . Useable on a flat EK1 pin , have yet to find one . Find it personally 'ugly' and not flatering for S&L otherwise high and fine quality workmanship ! As my own expression , I refer to it as the early 'Fat Dimple 4' . Thick lines on the 4 and the line junction has a cone-shaped hole in it , that can be seen inspite of the heavy file marks .I guess it had a short lived use in the production ? Any one here with more info on this ?? Hard to see from the picture but looks like the ring on yours is the large one ?? Like a WW1 EK2 ring , what are the diameter measurments on yours ? Now the majority of S&L 4's are the " thin 4's " with either a flat or concave background , for EK1 pin and EK2 ring ! Regards, Douglas Have to resize pictures .

How much out ? More importantly do the arms touch the surface evenly or only on one point ? May have to hold down the other 3 arms lightly to get the true measurement . That is why the squere tester is much better but finekey to make . Heat would damage the paint, repainted to cover this up . Vaulting cold is very hard , arm bends at the narrowest part and solder seam may split there as well . One also come across flat crosses with one uneven arm and a seperated weld possibly indecating an abondoned valting attempt . Douglas

Well ...-Ring and Squere Test- is just an a simple name used that describes the shape of the testing device . The purpose is to see if the arms of the cross are evenly curved , which factory vaulting is . Some owners will try to vault a cross 'lightly' to get more money for it !! Anything done by hand will never be absolute even . As show by another collector some time ago an uncomplicated thing to compare how even the arms are, all at the same time . Holding the cross one cannot compare arms . The round one-48mm diameter or 1 15/16"- is easier to get or make but not as acurate as the squere. Do not have one to show. What is it : a hollow squere that measures 40mm inside with aprox a 5 mm thick edge . The surface is perfectly plane-flat ., hollow as the pin may have to be open most times . The out most edges of all 4 cross arms resting on the edges of the squere . All 4 arms should touch evenly . Any gaps 1/32" or less are acceptible, ... not sure about why this figure ? If the cross rocks on one or more arms a strong possibilty that the cross may have been hand vaulted and then even more so if an arm shows a radial twist or tilt as well ! Then check surface for other signs . One can use plastic, wood or metal , A round device only works on some crosses depending how close the hinge block and pin catch are to the edge and the the tips of the arms must touch and rest on the ring ! A straight plastic pipe fitting of the correct size will work on some too or a flat piece of finished wood with the area for the pin assembly carefully cut out , less mobile , may warp but metal best . In a darkened room a small centre light will help with seeing any gaps . A helpfull tool for the serious EK collectors. He did the test on mine, perfect and the squere was only 2 inch high . Regards Douglas

Very nice earlier EK1 mm 4 ! Have myself the S&L EK2 only , dimple 4. S&L and others did make early on some vaulted EKs . Hand vaulting was done , but even very little would show signs of it either front or back . Have some pictrures where -Hand Vaulting - has more or less ruined the EK 1! Have you done the -ring or squere test ? Regards Douglas

As I have been told these 'Markings' are still a bit of a mistery : L59 , 23,26, etc are the maker marks. Then there is a small group of 'Inspection Marks', ..like a squere , circle . one dot , 3 dots, triangle , the common Long-gated S , a X and even a Swastika . There are a lot more stamped markings, .... that I have started looking into , that are used that may indecate a seperate parts manufacturer and or assembler markings . Just a project I started because of something I ran into unexpectendly, ...well if I get enough samples first , then we will see . Douglas

Looking at post picture #43 ,... I saw that the small Swastikas were just covered and the squeres probably removable , now the centre Swastika , I would think from the 'domed' appearance is just capped(soldered on ?) as well ,... is it still there too ? Hard to tell , from picture . But as the small ones were not cut or ground off , which is easily done , would indicate this award still has the original centre aswell . I take it this receipient did not order a 1957 version of his award . Or could one even order Diamond Awards in 57 issue type ? Douglas

Thanks Stan, that is the closes I will ever get to one.

Hi : Here is the mate to the one above. For those with more disposible income, and who want the higher priced -J(Junker)-Maker Marked metal version with delux simulated gold-plate double pin mount , this rare Schinkle EK 1 Uboot type is a must !!! [attachmentid=49956][attachmentid=49957]

Very nice these L 59's and still full of misteries , as far as all these extra symbols and markings go ! I just started looking into these various markings ,amazed how many there are and all the position variations . Is there any published reference material on them anywhere ? Thanks, Douglas

Think that is just the shadow casted from the light comming from the top right corner .

Hi Stan : Is there a 53 on yours too , just hidden by the pin maybe ? Douglas