Peter J

Hi Lee, You're correct about Bender, there's one pictured in the 1st vol. of Angolia/Schlicht book. The design is identical and in matte-silver, but lacks the enamel on the swastica. Further more it's a straight vertical pin and it measures 3,5cm (wingspan). German Aviation Management Career Personal (Abzeichen f?r in den deutschen Luftfahrtbetrieben besch?ftigte Personen). As stated, it could be worn by all RLM personell. cheers Peter

Thanks Kev. cheers Peter

"Yup. About 40 years worth...and still finding new ones." Troy, is it fair to assume this one is Bavarian? cheers Peter

Hi Stephen, My opinion is still the same, rubbish. Welcome to the forum cheers Peter

Rick, your way with words is just...... well, I can't find the words cheers Peter

Only 40 individuals were awarded this scarce decoration between 1814 and 1915, 33 in gold and 7 in silver. As stated in the link, the size of the normal medal is 31mm. cheers Peter

James, that's a world of a difference. Another ghost chase from my part cheers Peter

Hi Kevin, The 1870-71 scenario crossed my mind, but I guess your assumption is more plausible. cheers Peter

At first glance this beat-up 2-piece ribbon bar features two HC's. Anyone care to elaborate? cheers Peter

Paul, unfortunately there is nothing left from that period. She had the rank of Kameradenschafs ?ldeste (corporal) in the RAD and the rank was distinguished by the round brooch. In the RAD the salary was 25 pf/day, but once attached to the Luftmeldewesen she got 100 Mark/month + an additional 75pf/day. She was stationed in Wittenberge (west of Berlin), where the trail of bombers flew in to attack and was then transfered to R?gen, to fill out the ranks after a heavy airstrike. There she fulfilled her dudies with honours and was aknowledged all the way from Berlin. I asked if she recieved any decorations for her activities or any special insignias and this was her response: "All my salary went into an account in my hometown and was confiscated by the Poles. I recieved nothing, except for a small note telling me my employment had ended." cheers Peter

Hi Paul, Here's a little something on the subject: "I just got off the phone with an old acquintence of mine. She was drafted into the RAD in 1943 and sent to a training camp with 60 other young ladies. One day she and two other girls were picked out and sent to a LW facility for training as a telegraph operator, also as ?Flugmelder? and a few other tasks. She stayed in the LW for the rest of the war. One would think she ended up in the ?Luftwaffen-Helferinnenschaft? and issued the uniform associated with this formation. Instead she was employed by the LW, keeping her RAD-rank and kept on wearing her RAD-uniform. BUT, in order to step up one level in regards of wages, she was given the administrative rank ?Sonderf?hrerinn?!! http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=20510 cheers Peter

James, perhaps I focus on the wrong details, so I'll elaborate my thoughts. We all know designs could differ, due to the creation of new dies. However the design of the manufacturer's logos remained pretty much the same. The Aurich logo has been frequently encountered on modern fakes, with both textbook appearencies and variations (like i.g. the one posted on WAF with an H looking like an 8). I'm not suggesting the type you've shown is a fake, but merely that we should try to find a different badge with identical logo, in order to establish some sort of legitimacy for this particular logo. I've made a scan of Assmann's logo to illustrate. The top right image is from a PAB (the top circle is positioned above the top bar and it has long lower bars). The top left image is from a LW summer eagle (small A with DRGM). It's close to identical, apart from the top bar, which is centered through the circle. The bottom image is from a LW summer eagle (large A, no DRGM). Although almost identical to the former, this type is generally considered a fake, mainly due to great numbers appearing several years ago (at least that's what I've been told . But if we look closely, we'll notice the logo is significantly different i.e. the top circle is void and the lower bars are almost non existent. In all fairness it should be mentioned a third original design i.e. similar to type#2, but with additional vertical bars on the center bar. Who knows, maybe this is of no significance, but at least it kept me busy for a while cheers Peter

Joe, quite possible. We also shouldn't forget a lot of info (or assumptions) have surfaced in recent years and that there are still grey areas. I remember 20 years ago, when I visited a guy in S:t Pete, he showed me a pin that I remember having seen in H?sken's book, described as "unknown". When I asked about the identity, referring to H?sken's comment, he responded: "That's my mother's pin, she was a Luftwaffehelferinn". The image is on p.245 in the 1982 edition, but now it's common knowledge cheers Peter

James, I'm curious about the Aurich logo on the badge you've posted. The upper part of the letter A takes the shape of a full circle, contrary to what I'm familiar with i.e. a "half-circle" if you get my meaning. Are there any other items known with this particular logo? cheers Peter

Thanks Mike, I can live with that explaination. I just wanted to emphasize the difference in order to avoid misconseptions, should this be read by any individual without the general knowledge of the DRGM cheers Peter

Hi Chet, The DRGM-number on the EK-device is not related to the cross, but rather to the device itself. Further more, the DRGM-number was never issued to a specific manufacturer, it represented a certain design. The easiest way to illustrate this, is to compare the DRL-badge, produced by i.g. Wernstein and M?ller. Both feature the DRGM-number 35269. cheers Peter

Hi Mike, What's the connection between this DRGM-number and Meybauer? cheers Peter

Thanks guys. I?ve found some additional info in Bender?s ?The Luftwaffe? and that surely didn?t make matters easier. For interested parties, please check the scan and compare it with my first post. At first I thought a distinction between the different formations would help us establish fairly plausible assumptions regarding the actual pins. This turned out to be more complicated than I thought. The concept ?Wehrmachtgefolge? ought to be simple (all personel outside the four branches WH, WM, LW and W-SS), but to differentiate the others and place them correctly in one of the other four categories (armed forces, aux.forces, employees and workers) is not that easy and raises several questions.I suppose the concept ?armed forces? is possibly adopted for allied troops (i.g. Hungarian or Rumanian), but that?s just a wild guess in my attempt to find logic. The ?auxiliary forces? is a tougher nut to crack. Formations within this category ought to be i.g. Heimatflak and possibly also HJ Flakhelfer and Luftwaffenhelfer. The two final groups (employees and workers) is a real challenge and for the moment I won?t even try to elaborate. Finally here?s a little something to illustrate the complexity. I just got off the phone with an old acquintence of mine. She was drafted into the RAD in 1943 and sent to a training camp with 60 other young ladies. One day she and two other girls were picked out and sent to a LW facility for training as a telegraph operator, also as ?Flugmelder? and a few other tasks. She stayed in the LW for the rest of the war. One would think she ended up in the ?Luftwaffen-Helferinnenschaft? and issued the uniform associated with this formation. Instead she was employed by the LW, keeping her RAD-rank and kept on wearing her RAD-uniform. BUT, in order to step up one level in regards of wages, she was given the administrative rank ?Sonderf?hrerinn?!! How about that cheers Peter

The question about the identity of a specific pin came up in another thread. The reference books available present different facts, a discussion here might help us to clear out those differences. The following is based purely on my own assumptions and I expect to be corrected, should these not be accepted. The various organizations in the TR had member-pins. The uniformed military branches had no need for those, their identities were all too obvious. On civilian clothes however, a ?Zivil-Nadel? was authorized. The concept ?Wehrmachtgefolge? is trickier though. According to ?Feltgrau.com?, all armed forces, auxiliaries and in the direct employment, assistance or aid of Wehrmacht, but not considered part of the Heer, Marine, LW or W-SS. Include those from groups as RAD, NSKK, OT, etc. This will indicate all civilian employees also counted as WG. The common member-pin for all these catagories was the pin for ?Wehrmachtgefolge?. The major problem with the reference books, is the mixup of the two concepts Zivil-Nadel and Zivil-Angestellte. A sales-catalogue from Beco has been published on the WAF and one page from it will illustrate this topic. There are two Zivilabz. and two Abz. F?r Zivilangestellte illustrated. The left eagle is supposed to be authorized for Wehrmacht and Marine, which should read Heer and Marine. LW had an eagle of its own and Wehrmacht is the collective word for the three armed forces (four after this date, when W-SS was created). Perhaps I?m picky, but still . The right eagle is the LW Zivilabz. in gold, but according to H?sken, this design is also associated with Dienstnadel f?r Luftnachrichtenhelferinnen in silver. That would explain the reference from Scott, having seen those ladies with the pin on their ties. H?sken also claims the design of the left eagle is connected to Reichwehr and the Wehrmacht and that there also was one design credited to Wehrmacht, where the eagle is stubbier and without cutouts between the legs and feathers. Brinkmann has suggested that if in silver, it?s for Heer and in gold for Marine. Again H?sken presents another wiew, the silver is for Wehrmacht (except LW) and the gold version is ?Anstecksnadel der Offiziersbeuerber? (Heer). That would suggest that the silver version was a pin for civil wear but not the gold. Some logical gap here, but I might be reading it incorrectly. The other two are more controvercial. The left eagle (often incorrectly referred to as ?Zivilabz. d. Polizei?) is the Abz. f?r Zivilangestellte (Heer, Kriegsmarine and W-SS) in silver. When in gold, it?s no longer a badge, but rather a decoration i.e. ?Ehrenzeichen f?r treue Arbeit (25 j?hrige Dienstzeit) f?r Angestellte und Arbeiter bei Heer und Kriegsmarine. The right eagle represents the same criterias, but for LW (all according to H?sken). He also illustrates a different design of the silver version with the same wording. Who knows, perhaps this is a DLV Zivil-Nadel, considering its similarity to their cap insignia . All this boils down to two interesting questions, a/ is there a way to differentiate the Wehrmachtgefolge-pin from the Angestellte-pin and b/ were any of the groups associated with these two pins also issued a pin for wear on civilian clothes? If the Feldgrau-scenario is correct, the WG-pin included all groups, both para-military (i.g. NSKK) and civilian employees (i.g. clerks), why adapt a specific version for Angestellte? One possible answer could be that the WG-pin was replaced by the Angestellte-pin, but that would place the non-civilian groups in the employee-category, which seems far fetched. If a different scenario is applied i.g. one of these two actually was a member-pin and the other was for wear on civilian clothes, it will be the same non-logical outcome. After giving this some thought, I believe the WG-pin included all personnel with military connections and the Angest?llte-pin was issued solely to strict civilian employees. I haven?t seen any reference that a pin for wear on civilian clothes was ever issued to these two categories. The point I?m trying to make, is that the only groups eligible for a ?Zivil-Nadel? were the three branches within the Wehrmacht. The other uniformed units (NSKK, RAD etc.) are still open for consideration though. Hopefully this is comprehensible. Cheers Peter

Hi Scott, Your reference to Aux. is perhaps legit, but this topic is to my opinion too complicated and needs to be elaborated. I'll open a new thread to avoid this discussion from being lost in this thread cheers Peter

Yeah, a nasty duck . As far as experience goes, this is not my cup of tea either. However I would be immensly surprised if the LW pin is good, considering the sharp edges. cheers Peter

LW eagle

Here are two eagle pins, which I believe are nothing but fakes. They are die struck, but there's a rim of excess material all around the edges. cheers Peter

After WW2, a lot of Estonians fled and quite a few ended up here in Gothenburg, where they began working as ship-builders. This little pin was produced here in Sweden 1947. Although there is no direct connection to any war veteran org., it provides indication of an early association, established most probably by Estonian refugees. cheers Peter

It seems like this ribbon is a lot wider in it's original shape, the folding is clearly visible. As for the identity, no idea. cheers Peter