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FAR 32

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  1. Hello folks. It seems nobody finds the medal bar I presented above interesting enough to provide any feedback. I'm certainly not Komtur, but calling the OP's medal bar a Frankenstein bar is a bit extreme. You're basing your conclusion on flimsy reasons like the bow becoming detached, the Geneva cross falling off, and a post-1918 HOH?? Life went on after the fall of the Kaiser, you know. While the awards appear to be gilt silver, this is not at all surprising. Are you aware that it was not unusual for important and affluent people to have numerous medal bars tailored for themselves? The ones with gold decorations were worn to gala events and the ones with gilt were worn on less formal occasions. This is just a little tid-bit of information I picked up reading old threads in this forum. In my opinion it is a pretty impressive bar.
  2. Greetings to all. This seems like an appropriate opportunity to present my non combatant medal bar originally belonging to a Badener. The original owner of this medal bar, like the one presented above, is also unidentified. The piece came to me from Switzerland. How it ended up in Switzerland is still a mystery to me. Maybe one of the learned members here in the forum could a formulate a general career profile about the man who receceived these nice decorations. The gold Loyal Service Honor Decoration with the very prominent swastika represents 40 years of public service. Any and all feedback will be appreciated.
  3. THIS ADVERT HAS EXPIRED!

    • WANTED
    • ORIGINAL

    Greetings to all. . . I am seeking a Wilhelmskreuz mit Schwertern in Buntmetall (NOT zinc or Kriegsmetall) in very good original condition. I will gladly pay fair market price, or tell me what you seek and perhaps I have one in the collection to trade !! I am attaching herewith a photograph of what I am looking for. Thank you very much.

    £0.01

  4. Thank you again, Japan X, for this very useful information. Alles klar, as they say. I am the guy in charge of buying and selling our German Iron Cross and 'Steckkreuz' inventory but my business partners and I argued about the classification of our KAG crosses. I am going to re-label all of them to 'Maker Unknown' but apparently, Mr. Konstantin's theory about the KAG maker's mark has been circulating in practically all of the online forums. Thanks again for your help.
  5. Thank you for clearing that up, Japan X. Could you please answer one more question which I am sure is on everybody's mind? In his first edition on Page 156 Volume 1, does Mr. Konstantin's mention how he arrived at the conclusion that 'KAG' represented the company of Franz Kuhmayer? This would be very interesting to know since he changed his mind about this theory when he wrote his second edition. Thank you very much again, and this will be my last question.
  6. Hi Japan X Thank you very much for getting this information. It seems Mr. Konstantin identified KAG as the company Franz Kuhmayer on page 156 in his first volume, but changed his mind to the maker being UNIDENTIFIED on page 26 in his second volume. I would say this is an important update to this thread. Thank you very much again for your help, Japan X.
  7. Hi Japan X I don't have any copies of Mr. Konstatin's books but I wouldn't be able to read Russian anyway. If you are in possession of these books, could you PLEASE post a legible copy of Page 156 from Volume 1 for the benefit of Iron Cross enthusiasts in the forum. I would love to see Mr. Konstantin's evidence about Franz Kuhmayer making these crosses. Thanks very much for your help! Cheers
  8. Hello Readers, I think Mr. Bacon is on the mark. 👍 Let's face it... there are some active members here who seek gratuitous information from experts in the forum in order to peddle their chachkies at a considerable markup... PLUS, they tend never to utter a simple "Thanks!" In my opinion and ethically speaking, they ought to pay a commission to the members who assisted them in making a hefty profit. Don't feel bad, Simian! I think Nickstrenk was simply trying to establish a selling price for his badge and all you did was provide an accurate English translation and some historical insight that the rest of us found quite interesting. Just put Nicky-boy on your Ignore List and don't waste your time with these peddlers any more. Best regards and stay healthy!
  9. @laurentius and @GdC26 Since both of you hail from Europe, I have a sneaking suspicion that you may have limited language skills in English. No reasonable English-speaking person would characterize my remarks as an "unwarranted personal attack" and even to marginally suggest such a thing is absurd. Had you fully read and fully comprehended my post, you would know that I was particularly struck by Member Beery's request for Mr. Krause to provide him with a morsel of insight into how he arrived at the answer to his question. Mr. Beery even purchased a book and tried to undertake research on his own before posting a photo of his medal bar. I greatly admire that kind of initiative. Apparently, you guys don't. I teach commercial law 3 nights a week to continuing-education graduate students and I constantly reference case-law, or "precedent" as it is more commonly known. (Case law is simply the collection of past legal decisions written by courts in the course of deciding cases.) I try to teach my students how to analyze the law using these cases to resolve ambiguities and fill gaps to set rules for deciding cases. Imagine if one of my students asked, "How did you arrive at that conclusion?" and I were to respond, "Well, I'm a wizard... that's how." Not very useful information for people wanting to learn... is it? May I strongly suggest using an online translator like google so you can fully grasp the gist of my remarks. Please also refrain from rebuking or chastising me in the future, since neither of you appear to have any standing or authority to do so.
  10. Here's a close-up view of his bar. Those crossed-swords look a lot like the devices used on Ottoman awards, or are they used for other awards, too?
  11. Very interesting thread. I had never heard of these civilian volunteers who agreed to provide transportation services to the army during the war. I guess we now know where Freikorps Heydebreck got their sleeve-badges... Automobilkorps surplus!
  12. He is wearing an imperial crown badge on his sleeve. Does that mean he was a member of the Freikorps Heydebreck when this photo was taken, or was this crown also the sleeve-badge of the volunteer automobile corps before the end of WW1?
  13. Hello Christian, The Liquidierendes Kriegsministerium was an entity created from the remnants of the old Imperial War Ministry following the collapse of the Monarchy. It was never officially known as the "K.u.K" Liquidierendes Kriegsministerium. The Order of Precedence you posted is well known to Austrian phaleristicians and collectors, however, it has never been regarded as a "K.u.K" decree because at that point, there no longer existed an empire, a monarchy, an emperor, or the imperial armed forces. This Rangordnung was issued when the Liquidierendes Kriegsministerium was a component of the Staatsamtes für Heereswesen during the Demokratische Republik Deutschösterreich (1918-1919). It was the first attempt to "clean-up" the decrees of 1916 and 1917 issued by Kaiser Karl and was primarily intended for the Deutschösterreichische Volkswehr. The "Rangordnung der Auszeichnungen" of 1917 that I posted above represents the one and only final imperial decree approved and issued by Kaiser Karl himself through the Imperial War Ministry.
  14. Hello, Based on the final Rangordnung der Auszeichnungen from the year 1917 as found in the Österreichisches Ordenshandbuch, 4. Band, 2. Auflage, the order of precedence is listed below. Note where the War Service Medal (Kriegsmedaille) is on the list... Number 43. It would come right after the Signum Laudis on the Mosaner grouping. Also, the War Commemorative Medal and the Tirol Medal would have been classified as lower-level "Erinnerungsmedaillen/Denkmünzen" so it would be most appropriate to put them in the vicinity of Number 68, 69 and 70. The Wound Medal is waaaay down there, right after where the commemorative medals would be. Rangordnung der Auszeichnungen 1. Orden vom Goldenen Vlies 2. Großkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Orden 3. Großkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens 4. Militärverdienstkreuz I. Klasse 5. Großkreuz des Leopold-Ordens 6. Orden der Eisernen Krone I. Klasse 7. Großkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens 8. Kommandeurkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens 9. Kommandeurkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens 10. Militärverdienstkreuz II. Klasse 11. Kommandeurkreuz des Leopold-Ordens 12. Orden der Eisernen Krone II. Klasse 13. Kommandeurkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens 14. Ritterkreuz des Militär-Maria-Theresien-Ordens 15. Ritterkreuz des Sankt Stephans-Ordens 16. Ritterkreuz des Leopold-Ordens 17. Stern des Ehrenzeichens für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz 18. Offizierskreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens 19. Orden der Eisernen Krone III. Klasse 20. Ritterkreuz des Franz-Joseph-Ordens 21. Militärverdienstkreuz III. Klasse 22. Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz I. Klasse 23. Geistliches Verdienstkreuz I. Klasse 24. Insigne der Elisabeth-Theresien-Stiftung 25. Erinnerungszeichen an Feldmarschall Erzherzog Albrecht 26. Ehrenzeichen für Kunst und Wissenschaft 27. Geistliches Verdienstkreuz II. Klasse 28. Große Militär-Verdienstmedaille 29. Silberne Militär-Verdienstmedaille 30. Bronzene Militär-Verdienstmedaille 31. Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille 32. Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone 33. Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste I. Klasse 34. Offiziersehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz 35. Goldenes Verdienstkreuz 36. Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille I. Klasse 37. Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille II. Klasse 38. Bronzene Tapferkeitsmedaille 39. Silbernes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone 40. Silbernes Verdienstkreuz 41. Eisernes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone 42. Eisernes Verdienstkreuz 43. Kriegsmedaille 44. Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste II. Klasse 45. Erinnerungsmedaille 1864 46. Denkmünze an die Tiroler Landesverteidigung 1848 47. Denkmünze an die Tiroler Landesverteidigung 1866 48. Karl-Truppenkreuz 49. Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste III. Klasse 50. Militärdienstzeichen I. Klasse für Offiziere 51. Ehrenmedaille für 40-jährige Dienste 52. Militärdienstzeichen II. Klasse für Offiziere 53. Militärdienstzeichen III. Klasse für Offiziere 54. Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz II. Klasse 55. Militärdienstzeichen I. Klasse für Mannschaften 56. Militärdienstzeichen II. Klasse für Mannschaften 57. Militärdienstzeichen III. Klasse für Mannschaften 58. Landsturmmedaille 1908 59. Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste IV. Klasse 60. Silberne Ehrenmedaille für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz 61. Jubiläums-Hof-Medaille 62. Jubiläums-Erinnerungsmedaille für die bewaffnete Macht 63. Jubiläums-Erinnerungsmedaille für Zivilstaatsbedienstete 64. Jubiläumskreuz 1908 65. Militär-Jubiläumskreuz 66. Jubliäumskreuz für Zivilstaatsbedienstete 67. Gedenkzeichen an Kaiser und König Franz Joseph I. 68. Bosnisch-Hercegovinische Erinnerungsmedaille 69. Erinnerungskreuz 1912/13 70. Seereise-Denkmünze 1892/93 71. Verwundetenmedaille 72. Bronzene Ehrenmedaille für Verdienste um das Rote Kreuz 73. Feuerwehr- und Rettungsmedaille 74. Ehrenritterkreuz des Souveränen Malteserordens 75. Ehrenritterkreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens 76. Erinnerungszeichen für die Ritter vom Goldenen Sporn 77. Marianer-Halskreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens 78. Donatritterkreuz des Souveränen Malteserordens 79. Marianerkreuz des Deutschen Ritterordens 80. Insigne des in Tirol immatrikulierten Adels
  15. @laurentius & @Nicolas7507 Hello Laurentius and Nicolas, You guys are brilliant! You found photos of AUTHENTIC Iron Crown Orden ribbon-bar devices on the internet. That's very impressive because these devices are very obscure and very seldom encountered. I was inspired by something you wrote, Laurentius. You mentioned that Rick Researcher would have been excited to see a thread like this. So I performed some internet research instead of simply listening to a person at Dorotheum who obviously did not entirely know what he was talking about. Many years ago, I discovered that HUNGARIAN phaleristic scholars researched and documented K&K orders, decorations and military history much more extensively than the Austrians. It is chiefly because the Hungarians regard the Dual Monarchy of Austria-Hungary (1867-1918) as a "Golden Age" in their history. So I accessed the online research-articles of Hungarian phaleristician Gregory Paul Sallay, which are written in Hungarian, (but thank goodness for Google-Translator!) His research articles provide the answers to all the questions we have been discussing. After the newly crowned Emperor Karl IV ascended the throne, enormously significant changes to the system of imperial orders and decorations were implemented by his decrees of December 13th, 1916. One of the most significant changes was the awarding of SWORDS-ON-THE-RIBBON for Austria-Hungary's wartime orders and decorations. Collectors of German orders and decorations are accustomed to seeing crossed swords on a ribbon bar to indicate combatant service or, at least, service in a combat zone. This is NOT the case with Austrian-Hungarian awards. From 1917 onward, the newly instituted Swords-On-The-Ribbon became a very big deal! For those of you familiar with Oldenburg awards, it is akin to the ribbon-clasp "Vor dem Feinde". Now for Swords-On-The-Ribbon for the Iron Crown Order. According to Sallay's research, in order to become awarded Swords-On-The-Ribbon for the Order of the Iron Crown, Kaiser Karl wanted a commanding officer on any level to lead his [Austro-Hungarian] troops with "Bravery, heroic distinction and outstanding combat leadership resulting in significant strategic and/or tactical gains on the battlefield BEFORE THE ENEMY" (vor dem Feinde.) This would clearly explain why German officers did NOT receive Swords-On-The-Ribbon when awarded the iron Crown Order 3rd Class. They were not commanders of Austro-Hungarian troops (i.e. platoons, companies, battalions, regiments, etc.) The green-enameled wreath-device is obviously a way to indicate combatant status for German officers awarded the Iron Crown Order 3rd Class but who were not awarded swords-on-the-ribbon.
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