Christophe

Antonio, Welcome in this Forum!!! Your website is a gret reference very often used by me in terms of ribbons!!! A great work!!! Cheers. Ch.

Close-up pic showing the extra-fixing "system". Ch. Pic : Dietrich Herfurth - Milit?rische Auszeichnungen des UdSSR - Berlin, 1987 - page 31.

Hi Christian, I think you are referring to this pic. Ch. Pic : Dietrich Herfurth - Milit?rische Auszeichnungen des UdSSR - Berlin, 1987 - page 31.

Romania - Order of Ferdinand I Grand Collar of the Order of Ferdinand I.(Close-up pic). Ch. Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

Romania - Order of Ferdinand I Grand Collar of the Order of Ferdinand I. Ch. Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

Romania - Order of Ferdinand I Plaque (Star) of Grand Cross of the Order of Ferdinand I. Ch. Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

Romania - Order of Ferdinand I Insignia of Grand Cross of the Order of Ferdinand I. (Close-up pic). Ch. Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

Romania - Order of Ferdinand I Insignia of Grand Cross of the Order of Ferdinand I. Ch. Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

Romania - Order of Ferdinand I Plaque and insignia of Grand Cross, and Collar of the Order of Ferdinand I. Gift of Carol II, King of Romania to France, in 1937. Ch. Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

Most interesting subject, here. A lot of great things have already been said in the thread, and as no text seems to give us an "official" or real explanation about the logic behind; I guess we can only build theories without means of validating them or not. But, let's have fun!!! My turn to propose or elaborate a few comments and suggestions. First a few remarks : There seems to be a time dimension: Let's look at the dates of establishment of these orders and medals : 1918-1935 : Order of Red Banner, Order of the Red banner of Labor, Order of Lenin, Order of the Red Star, Order of the Badge of Honor established. All screwback. 1938, 24 January : Medal 20 Years of Red Army. Early red suspension (simpler type than Order's). 1938, 17 October : Medal for Bravery, Medal for Combat Service. Early red suspension (simpler type than Order's). 1938, 27 December : Medal for Valiant Labor, Medal for distinguished Labor. Early red suspension (triangular). ---- 1939, 1 August : HSU. Early red suspension. 1940, 22 May : HSL. Early red suspension. ---- 1942, 20 May : Order of Patriotic War. Early red suspension. 1942, 29 July : Order of Suvorov, Order of Kutuzov (1st and 2nd Class only), Order of Alexandre Nevsky. Early red suspension. 1942, 22 December : Leningrad, Odessa, Sevastopol, Stalingrad "Defense of" Medals; 5-sided suspension. 1943, 2 February : Partisans Medals. 5-sided suspension. 1943, 8 February : Order of Kutuzov (3rd Class). Early red suspension. ---- 1943, 19 June : New regulation. All early rectangular suspensions abolished, with the exception of the HSU and HSL, which get redesigned rectangular suspensions. --- 1943, 10 October : Order of Bogdan Khmelnitsky. Screwback 1943, 8 November : Order of Victory. Screwback. Ribbon only established on 1944, 18 August. 1943, 8 November : Order of Glory. 5-sided suspension. 1944, 3 March : Order of Ushakov, Order of Nakhimov. Screwback. 1944, 3 March : Ushakov Medal, Nakhimov Medal. 5-sided suspension. 1944, 1 May : Moscow, Caucasus "Defense of" Medal. 5-sided suspension. 1944, 5 December : Soviet Polar Regions "Defense of" Medal. 5-sided suspension. 1945, 9 May : Medal for Victory over Germany. 5-sided suspension. What can we see? * 1918-1938 : Interwar and "fundation" of the system period. All Orders are screwback. The Medals are all on a red suspension, with a simpler type than the one that will be later used for Orders. Basic and simple system : Orders are screwback; Medals with a small red ribbon on a suspension. Hierarchy easy to recognise on early photos of wearers. * 1939-1940 : HSU and HSL. Titles on early red rectangular suspensions. Quality of these suspensions increased compared to medals. More red on uniforms... Not so easy to establish hierarchy, at a first glance. Only the position on the uniform helps. * 1942 : GPW. War Orders created, with same suspension as the HSU/HSL Titles. So, even more red on the uniforms... Kutuzov 3rd class (February 1943) made consistent with 1st and 2nd Class. * End 1942 : War Medals appear, with 5-sided suspensions, and specific ribbons, for the 1st time. Red is no more used. Not possible, too many diferent potential red ribbons. Did too much red on uniforms motivated this change ? * June 1943 : New regulation. Only the Titles keep rectangular suspension, with red color. All top prestigious Orders created during the GPW, and War related, are converted to screwback. All previous Orders become 5-sided suspension. 1 exception : Order of Red Star which stays screwback. Is it because it is the only one very heavily war - and only War - related? All medals converted to 5-sided suspension. * After June 1943 : All Orders are screwback, except the Order of Glory. War related, it is created on a 5-sided suspension. Established on the same day as the Order of Victory : is this the reason ? My guesses : 1. A color symbolism issue. After a period when all Russian awards have been abolished (10 November 1917), the Soviet award system gradually implemented - in the Russian Imperial tradition and in the same spirit as the French Revolution of 1789 - a system of honors and awards based at first on presentation weapons. Then quickly appeared the first Orders of the RSFSR and the Soviet Union. These honors have to be easilmy seen and indentified on an uniform. The red color has been predominant as a symbol. The first SU Orders where all with the Red Banner related. The first Medals, which did not displayed the Red Banner, had the red banner color and symbol as a suspension (red ribbon). The symbolic of the red color is there very strong. The Titles appeared, still with the red ribbon... The first War Orders, also with the red color, multiplied. 2. Need to differentiate Titles from "normal" Orders. It was probably time to give a hierarchy to the visual aspect of uniforms. Too much red damage the valour of the red color, that becomes banal. That's why, in my opinion, the red supension will only be kept for the highest awards : the HSU and HSL titles. 3.The War Orders preeminence. The change of regulation occured in June 1943. At that time, we are fully in the middle of the GPW, or at least -as we at that time did not know that - at a crucial moment when you have to "exhibit" the merits in war. The screwback conversion of the War orders can be seen - again, in my opinion - in a similar manner as the plaques in the Russian old regime awards system, or other countries system : the top level of awards. Interesting to notice that the sash system has never been used in the Soviet awards system and hierarchy. The most meritant "soldiers" and "actors" of the GPW must be easily identified. I think the origin of the screwback War Orders (including the Red Star) is there. These Orders differentiate themselves easily from the other Orders and Medals. There size - big compared to others - and their shape - a star - again goes in this direction : symbolism. Notice the symbolism of the star in the Soviet system... Here are a few thoughts about this interesting topic. Nothing perfect here, only my guesses. I have to add that, even later the Soviet system did not seem to be very consistent (100 years Lenin, Medals for Distinguished Service...). Your opinion or reaction ? Cheers. Ch.

Ed, You're too modest... Ch.

Bryan, Fantastic !!!! .... (and many more....). Thanks to you for bringing this to us. I did even not know that this english version existed. And the speed is far faster than the russian version (maybe because it is still l"ight" as many awards have not been "translated" yet. It will be far more easier for us to consult this excellent site, than presently with the filter of online translators. A GREAT GREAT thanks to Mondvor (Andrew) for his site and this new initiative!!! You made my day today . Cheers. Ch.

Hi Simon and Christian, No bad feeling at all in arguing, here. I just thought these had been issued by a private company, as they are in every country. As this point was not, in my opinion, clearly enough stated in Christian's first post, hence our Gentlemen discussion. But, this was not the case, as they have been made by the Russian Mint. And that's here that Christian's thread gets all its value and interest for us. I fully agree on this. Thanks again for posting it, Christian. Cheers. Ch.

No circulation, but authentic currency... for collectors. No pb... But, OK, I understand your point. Cheers. Ch.

Christian, We could longer discuss the French aspects you mention on a macro- instead of micro-economical/political view. But, that's not the subject here. What I want to understand : even if they are "official currency made by the Russian Mint", did they have really circulated ? They, again, look like more to collectors items... even if made by the official mint... But, maybe I am wrong ... Ch.

Christian, As you said it : These are really memento or "collectors" coins (generally in precious metals, silver, gold...) that you can purchase, but that has no currency value... They have been issued, but not for circulation or currency value. I doubt they really circulated. Who made them? A private company certainly... Its influence, who knows ? What surprises me is that they talk about "Normandy Invasion". In the US (and in France too!!!!), it is considered that the US troops "liberated" (more than invaded) Normandy... Who made these coins ? Interesting to knwo, in my opinion... Cheers. Ch.

Christian, I'm just kidding... Ch. PS : BTW, for some "cultures", "propaganda" may today be not so neutral; but that's not here the topic ...

Christian, Who talks about "propaganda" ? . The topics of our Quiz are, today, history and information... only Cheers. Ch.

Christian, Excellent . With your recent contributions, and those of other members, the attractiveness and the pace of the Quiz have greatly increased. Very good!!! To all, Please, don't hesitate to participate; the Quiz is open to every Member, and it's informative while being fun !!!! Cheers. Ch.

Ed, I'm afraid, nothing related to Arthus-Bertrand... Ch.

Ed, Frankly, I use this one and it is not bad at all!!!! Maybe Maxim know a better one ? Ch.

Both of you are correct. You are interested in German history : learn German (what I try to do...). You are interested in Russian history : learn Russian (what I will do...). You are interested in British History : learn English (What I still need to...) You are interested in French history : learn French (what I don't need to...). Ch.

Maxim, Thanks. I'm sure a lot of interesting readings there. A lot!!!!!... in Russian. And you clear message is the right one : we HAVE to learn the language of the history / items we are interested in... Clear!! Cheers. Ch.

Maxim, I can only agree... (Sun Tzu BTW?). Thanks for posting this. I just regret that you are not allowed to post the back... Cheers. Ch.

Maxim, Very interesting post. Do you mean this ORB is a fake one that has not been totally "finished" and "aged" ? Can we see the back ? If not pb with "touchy" or sensitive topics, how did you get this one ? Ch.