Norm F

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Here's another unusual example of this type of U-boat with variable smooth outlines and the same obverse design but with a totally different setup. This badge was recently posted on a German forum and summarily dismissed as a copy by a junior member, but to me they are still a mystery.

A fascinating grouping and story. Thanks for posting, Gordon. I wonder what happened to his U-boat badge -- possibly at the bottom of the sea? Best regards, ---Norm

And finally, Paul, here's a comparison of your badge and an example of the unknown wide pin variety. You can see the close correlation in the obverse die characteristics. Best regards, ---Norm

Here's a collage of the unknown flatback maker's minesweepers, showing the typical reverse setup for these badges. You can see the same principle of smooth outlines that vary from example to example. It wasn't uncommon for makers of badges with needle pin setups to then use a wide pin of some sort for their U-boat badge, so for me it's not a stretch that the U-boats may be from the same maker, and that yours is a variant using the needle-pin (despite the fact that the catch plate is also different).

Hi Paul, I think you can rule out the vertical pin Orth, and also it's definitely not Meybauer. I also don't think it's the same badge as the one you posted from Weitze despite the similarity in reverse hardware. To me your badge is most like the unknown maker with the "Deschler-like" pin (but not Deschler). A characteristic of these badges is the soft outlines that are different from badge to badge due to an abundance of hand trimming and filing, something you don't see from other makers. Look at the cutout under the sub on the reverse of the top example in this collage and compare to the one you posted.The pin on yours is also more characteristic of the so-called "unknown flatback" maker, who seems to have produced a wide range of combat awards, and it's possible that all these U-boats represent the output of the unknown flatback maker. He's still surrounded in mystery - wartime vs. early post-war vs. late post-war -- but many examples look very convincing for wartime manufacture. Best regards, ---Norm

Well, in the other posting I had suggested the U-boat badge in post #6 was a Pforzheim design but I've changed my mind on that. On closer look the best match is Funcke & Brüninghaus, Lüdenscheid. And interestingly, I'd say the best match for the Close Combat Clasp in post #8 is also F&BL. I'm not convinced that the GAB is an RK as suggested by Don, but I can't place it at this time. Perhaps others will chime in as well. Best regards, ---Norm

I think we can safely say these dies are not all from the same manufacturer, since we already see Pforzheim and Gablonz represented, and the owner says another one is from Juncker in Berlin. (Which is the Juncker die, by the way?) With regards to die manufacturing, these steel dies are not cut by hand of course. This link to a Youtube movie shows you a bit of the process as used by B. H. Mayer in Pforzheim, starting with the hand production of the oversized design in plaster. It's pretty informative but skips the steps in between the making of the negative Matrize (master die) and production of the actual negatve working dies. The in-between step that is skipped is the production of a positive Patrize (Punch, in English) which in turn is used to stamp out the negative production dies. With each step, minor hand modification/correction of the steel Matrize, Patrize and production die is done before the steel is then hardened. Presumably, most the dies shown in this thread are Punches. DN - can you tell us which die is identified as Juncker and how that was verified? Best regards, ---Norm

Very nice and very interesting, Gordon! I'm glad they consulted you for the design. If these do well, do you think the company might produce some other vessels like Graf Spee, or even a minesweeper vessel? Cheers. ---Norm

Hi Darrell, For the solid badges, these positive dies would be the "Patrize" ("Punch" in english) and would be used to stamp out the negative production dies which in turn would be used to make the actual badges. Very interesting! Best regards, ---Norm

Whoa.......

Hi James, Better photos. Yes, a good tombak Deumer. It has about 20% of its gilding remaining on the wreath, and the reverse has been polished with an abrasive which has removed the darkened oxidized silver patina. Best regards, ---Norm

Hi James, It does indeed look like tombak Deumer. However, the photos aren't very good and there seems to be an odd texture and waviness to the reverse? Any chance for sharper closeups? Best regards, ---Norm

Hi DN, Could you at least confirm whether or not my description is accurate? Best regards, ---Norm

Hi DN, Very interesting artifact. Do you have more photos and a story behind it? It looks like a damaged steel punch (Patrize) of a Schickle/Mayer/Zimmermann-type U-boat badge, such as would have been used to make production dies, but I've never seen one of these before for comparison. Best regards, ---Norm

Wonderful Michel! Your own museum! I look forward to the updates. Best regards, ---Norm

Hi Martin, Very very nice. I think you are amassing a Museum quality collection. Wouldn't it be great to walk through a reconstruction of the Atlantis with your collection displayed in it! Best regards, ---Norm

Hi Guys, Here's another zincer in the same design, but with a flat back instead of dish back and not as nice as Jan Arne's. Same design as the G.W.L. tombak badge which Gordon previously showed may have been used by Deumer (or at least by another Lüdenscheid producer) as well. It has the same hardware as Jan Arne's and the hardware is gilt as well. So the Lüdenscheid connection certainly seems likely. But who owned the master die? (I guess just a rhetorical question at this time!) Best regards, ---Norm

And here's something quite interesting. Two S&L tombak Destroyer badges. The top one is maker marked "4" and has the same setup as the Collectors Guild U-boat, and the bottom one is non-maker marked and has the same setup as Michel's badge. Best regards, ---Norm

Hi Martin, The K&Q EK1s that I've found all have the round wire "C" catch not the ?-shape catch (see attached). Likewise I couldn't find other W&L badges yet with this catch. S&L used the ?-shape catch quite frequently however. I realize that this is only one factor to consider, and we still don't know if there was some working relationship between S&L and W&L. Best regards, ---Norm

Thanks very much Gordon for this historical perspective. The breadth of your research is formidable! So in this photo it seems to be a KM issue blue uniform; is that insignia of the national symbol on the upper arm specific to the MKP or the WSP? And does it replace the standard left breast insignia or is it in addition to...? Cheers. ---Norm

Hi Gordon, Very interesting. Thanks for posting. I presume these go with the shoulder straps you posted here? Would these police be from standard Navy personnel or would they be recruited into Navy positions from a civilian police force? Best regards, ---Norm

Hi Jan Arne, Nice badges, especially that rare BECO! Only the "Mayer" isn't actually a Mayer. That's the type attributed to Juncker and someone's done something odd to the pin. It nicely matches the examples in this thread. Best regards, ---Norm