DavidM

I bet they haven't got all the 'L' numbers as well as all the numbered ones !!!

Hello Your EK is very nice, very original and I'm very jealous !! Nice one

Hello I have just received this 1st pattern bar to the iron cross 2nd class. When it arrived it was extremely heavilly coated with a dark patenia and attached to a piece of ribbon. I have carefully removed it from the ribbon and even more carefully cleaned it as, in my opinion, the patenia / build up of 'grime' had to be removed. As the layers of 'grime / patenia came away a mark was revealed on the back of the bar, L/12. Now, I'm happy that the item is a genuine original early or 1st pattern bar, (I wouldn't have cleaned it otherwise) as there are a couple posted on this forum which are indentical to mine, and which are deemed ok. The question is, do I have an original first pattern bar to which someone has added the L/12 stamp or do I have an original marked Junckers 1st pattern bar ? Given the layers of grime, the patenia etc that was the bar when it arrived, (you really couldn't see the maker mark - the bar was absolutely rotten with 'grime' / patenia), I would like to think, (hope), that this is a genuine mark. But what do the experts think. Any and all comments and opinions warmly welcomed. Thanks.

Hello Thanks for that Brian. Any chance of seeing the full 1870 EK ?

Hello Brian I'm not 100% on this but as I understand it, it is the black coloured build up, (as opposed to the lighter 'brown' patina), that causes the damage. All these crosses were heavily coated by a really thick black layer, hence why I very, very carefully cleaned them. My understanding is that if done very carefully and properly, cleaning these silver items is benefical to them. That said, and as I mentioned before, only a few items can be cleaned, i.e. the real silver items. Other medals and awards, and certainly the majority of third reich awards, should be left as they are otherwise you could well ruin them. As I say, just my pennies worth and preference based on my understanding of the issue.

Hello Many thanks Darrell for the information. One thing I would point out is that if your personal preference is to carefully clean these silver EKs that in my opinion is fine. But don't try cleaning some of the other awards, especially the WW2 stuff, as most of these use a wash which will just come right off and ruin the item. Leave those as they are !

Hello Thanks for the replies and information. Yes, with the 1914 EKs that are silver I do tend to clean them by dipping them in Goddards silver polish. Two reasons for it, the first being that I am given to understand that if you leave silver with the black tarnish on it will eventually pit and rot. I don't know the full 'science' behind it - although it was once explained to me at some length by a lecturer in metallurgy - but the tarnish builds up due to sulphurs etc in the atmosphere, and as they are acidic they eventually corrode the silver beyond repair. Second, I like them that way as I feel it is how they should look, after all you wouldn't have dared go out on parade with a tarnished EK ! I wouldn't clean a WW2 EK that still has is it's frosted finished etc intact, but these silver ones, yes. I know there will some sharp intakes of breath at this, but each to their own ways.

Hello It looks good to me.

Hello Dave Thanks for the comments. Yes, they have all come from a UK dealer.

Close in of ring with marking of '12'

EK2 with marking '12' rear

EK2 with marking of '12'

EK2 maker marked 'WS' rear

EK2 maker marked 'WS'

Hello I've just received these three 1914 EKs. The EK1 is vaulted and has a small screwback to it, (should there be another disc under the screw part on mine or is this how they came ?). There are no maker or other markings on the cross, but the screw part has four stars and '800' on it. The cross itself also appears to have a high silver content. One of the EK2s has 'WS' stamped on the ring while the other has a couple of marks and what appears to be the number '12' stamped onto it. The one marked 'WS' appears to have a high silver content. The cores on both the EK1 and the EK2 marked '12' 'rattle' in their frames. Can anyone say from the close in shot of the ring marked '12' who the maker amy be ? I'm not expecting to much given the photo and the nature of the marks, but someone may have seen this before. Either way I like them. I have to say that they do look a lot better 'in the hand' than on these scans. As always, any comments or opinions warmly welcomed.

Hello Thanks to DaveB, one of the forum moderators, I've just acquired this Round 3 EK2 from him. Magnetic iron core, standard three piece construction. It measures 44.43mm x 44.63mm and weighs about 19 grams, (I've had to weigh it on a set of ordinary kitchen scales so the weight won't be 100% acurate). As you would expect for this type of EK, there are no maker marks. As a bonus, (well I think so), the core 'rattles' in the frame. This is the first one of this variant that I have obtained. I hope you like it as much as I do. Thanks for looking, and again thanks to DaveB for making this possible with a very fast and easy transaction.

Wow !!!!! Absolutely superb !! The detail is so good on these that almost seem three dimensional.

Hello Gordon An absolutely superb set of photos, and extremely interesting history with them as well. Many thanks for showing these.

Hello I'm with Hinrik on this one. As he says, since the crosses have been freely given there is no profit motive, no gain and no point in inventing the story. The EKs look like really good, nice original examples. So if this old man is making up the story he would have to have found and bought a decent EK2 and a good quality cased EK1, and then give them away !! Sorry, but to me that just wouldn't make sense - unless you were going to make a profit out of it which this chap isn't. So nice story, nice EKs and congratulations Hinrik. On the subject of spies, there was a celebrated double agent who worked for the British during WW2 who was also awarded the Iron Cross. To quote from one source, V E Bowen, 'The Prussian and German Iron Cross', (and there are other references to this as well) : "The Spanish double agent code named 'Garbo' was awarded the British MBE for services to the British. He was also awarded the 1939 2nd Class Iron Cross by the Germans, who believed he was working for them. He operated from a 'safe house' in Hendon where, together with his partner 'Brutus', they supplied the Germans with bogus information about allied troop positions in England, prior to the D-Day invasion in Normandy. 'Garbo' was enrolled as a member of the Spanish Blue Division by the Germans to facilitate the procedure of awarding him the EK2." Bowen goes on to say: "........J C Masterman in his book 'The Double Cross System in the War of 1939 to 1945', (Yale University Press 1972), pages 173 - 175 gives a detailed account of the circumstances in which 'Garbo' - (Senor Juan Pujol Garcia) - came to be decorated with the Iron Cross 2nd Class................Nigel West, historian and writer, also upholds this. The 'Mail On Sunday', (a UK Sunday newspaper), dated 3rd June 1984, published a full and exciting account on the wartime activities of 'Garbo', and how Nigel West tracked him to his post war home in South America." So there are precendents for double agents to be awarded medals, and to be paid as well. Further more, as with 'Garbo', enrolling him in the Blue Divison and making the award of the EK2 would have meant the possibilty of exposure, and his pay, (because he was paid), would have either gone into a bank account or to his home. So the story Hinrik relates here is, in my opinion, realistic, plausable and given the total lack of profit or indeed any other motive, believeable.

Hello Don Many thanks for that. As I say in the hand it is much better than the scans, (I really think it may be time to replace my ageing scanner !). There is some wear in places to the silvered parts producing a super dual colour effect when viewed against the surrounding silvered surface. I'm well aware that age, patenia, wear etc can all be faked but there is something about this one that says 'I'm the real item'. In the hand it looks right and feels right. I don't know if you if you know what I'm trying to say here, but with some of these items you can instinctively tell if it's good or bad. Anyway that, combined with my research have convinced me it's the real thing. Unusual and not maybe the prettiest bar around, but non the less genuine - well in my opinion.

And here is the 'culprit. (sorry for going off topic)

Hello A very nice cross indeed. Thanks for showing it

Hello Thanks for the replies so far. Bob, I wondered about the round pins at first as like you I am used to seeing the flat pins, but I have found that some companies did indeed use these round pins. Since posting this I have been going through my reference books and searching the Internet and the most common maker using the round type pins is Boerger & Co, Berlin. They used the round pins throughout WW2 on their EK2 bars. Apparently the three types of pins encountered are the flat type with sharp points, the round type and the flat type with blunt ends. If you look in Gordon Williamsons book, 'The Iron Cross of 1939', pages 101 and 103 there two examples of Boerger bars with the round pins. I have also now found a couple of genuinely authenticated 1st pattern bars, (2 EK2 and 1 EK1), without any pebbling in the wreath behind the swastika and with some odd marks similar to the ones on mine. It's a shame I can't get a decent scan of this because in the hand it is really nice. The more I've researched, the more convinced I am of it's originality - but I would still really welcome everyones opinion on it. So please let me know what you think of it. As an aside, this had three of it's pins intact when I got it. Normally I'd go into the study to examine an item like this but for various reasons I was looking at it in the living room. The phone rang and while I was talking I absent mindedly sat there holding the ribbon that the bar was on, twirling it between my fingers. The next thing my cat was on it, pulling at the ribbon and some how it managed to detach the lower pin. I don't blame the cat, I blame myself for doing such a stupid thing in the first place. Still, that's life ! The moral of the story is that shiny objects waving about don't mix with playful cats !!

Anybody got any thoughts, good, bad or even indifferent about this piece ?

Hello I have recently acquired this 1st pattern bar to the EK2. I'm afraid the scans aren't that good - it looks very much better 'in the hand' - but this is the best I can get with my scanner. It measures 30.14mm across the top of the wings and 30.64mm from the base of the trapizium to the top of the eagles head. It is 1.65mm in thickness when measured at the wings. The wreath measures 12.69mm across. I haven't been able to weigh it as my scales aren't working. I would be extremely grateful for members opinions on this item. Many thanks.