Bob

Not a very sharp picture, but here's (left to right) - type 1: 373 - type 2: 413 + 420

Note - Vatjan in post 10 refers to the possibility of it being 415 instead of 115. On type 2, I would suggest that 420 would not be "low" for type 2 but perhaps the "high".

OK, benefit of having my shoebox full of treasures in house today is I can really take the time to review / compare in detail. I believe based on this and the comments in this thread that perhaps the small Hein Sonnenberg (who by the way, is also in touch with Battushig) catalogue is correct in that there are 3 types of Soyombos. Type 1 - Such as referred to in above post quoting collectrussia. The well known 3-rivets version with dark enamel. Based on the thorough review of all Soyombo's online, I believe that there will have been 400 produced (and issued?). Lowest authentic one seen is the 24 on collectrussia, highest one - in my eyes - the 373 which I have posted. This 373 was acquired from a trusted dealer who gave me a lifetime guarantee. In my database of Soyombos i have 23 sightings in that range (24-373) and all authentic ones are type 1. There does appear to be some variation... Ed quoted 41.35 and 41.25 grams (incl. suspension). My 373 is 39.0 grams (incl. suspension) and 32.3 excluding. This 32.3 is exactly on target with the collect russia nr 24. In other words, it could be that there is some manufacturing variation in between there (i.e. Ed's) which weigh a bit more. Type 2 - I have taken my 420 (which can be traced back to the most reliable dealer possible in UB) and 413 and both match the type 2 shown in Battushigs book (CORRECTION: including the screwpost but not the screw itself, because that is not shown in Battushigs book; in any case the type 2 in Battushig is very different from the nr "223" shown by Ed). They are also - after close analysis in hand - virtually identical in terms of color enamel, general shape, and also dimensions (38.2 height incl. eyelet, 36.4 width). The suspensions are 100% identical incl. the diameter of the screw (2.8mm vs. 3.9mm on my type 1). Supposedly (Sonnenberg catalogue) this type is made out of red gold rather than yellow gold. There is an oddity, being that my 413 weighs less than my 420. 413: 32.4 gr / 25.0 gr (in/ex suspension) 420: 36.5 gr / 29.0 gr This is because 413 is thinner. 413 which by the way also can be traced to the ultimate source in UB and, as we have seen with Type 1, manufacturing differences MAY potentially be the reason for weight differences. In my database I've seen no other potential speciments which match. I have seen Soyombo's wit numbers 425 and 432 but they are substantially different and raise many question marks (either fake or even more types than noted in this thread)... ADDITION: I suspect (but cannot confirm) that the type 2 in Battushig may actually be nr 415 instead of 115 (as it is shown in the book). This would - if correct - provide a 3rd datapoint for the type 2 is proposed above. I believe (but could be wrong) that others have commented about Battushig purposefully changing this specific serial nr in his book? Type 3 - I truely believe that the Soyombo misleadingly numbered 223 (in Ed's hands) is a type 3 (as indicated in Sonnenberg catalogue as gilt bronze) which - again - has been incorrectly numbered. I suspect the Soyombo on Sonnenberg's site is another such example (but left unnumbered). Bear in mind that there is a mismatch between the screws on the Sonnenberg example and the one Ed has. The type 3 appears to have considerably darker enamel on the suspension, much like type 1. Suspect this type is not numbered (generally). I realize above is just my opinion. Fact is we have various Soyombo's out there with people (incl. me) stating that the source of them should indicate they are real. This creates some confusion but it also gives food for though in getting to a refined typology... for the moment, I'm sticking with 3 types. The weight of type 2 appears to support it also being substantially gold (not as much as type 1). Would be interesting to get a weight on Ed's nr 223 (maybe i missed it somewhere in the thread, will have another look) to support that it is just gilt bronze and substantially deviating from all others in weight.

Going to revisit the Soyombo - first, regardig type 1, a good "base" - an authentic one on collectrussia.com: "Gold Soembo Medal of a Hero of Labor of Mongolian Peoples Republic, Type 1, Var 1, #24. Medallion is in solid 14 K gold and enamel, suspension device is in gold plated silver and enamel. Engraved serial number to the reverse. Medallion weighs 32.3 g (not including suspension device), and measures 34.3 mm in width, 38.2 mm in height including the eyelet. This is the earliest type and variation of the Gold Soembo, featuring riveted medallion and darker, nicer quality blue enamel than on the later issues. The gold Soembo emblem on blue background stands for prosperity, intellectual power, honesty, etc. Beautiful cherry red enamel on the suspension device, spectacular quality throughout. Very fine to excellent condition. The enamel on the suspension shows contact marks and minor surface flaking, no penetrating chips or repairs. The blue enamel in the center is nearly untouched. The gold rays show very little wear and their ridges are extremely crisp. The reverse is clean and nice. Includes original screw plate in gilded silver. The Gold Soembo was the Mongolian equivalent of the Soviet "Hammer and Sickle" star of Hero of Socialist Labor. Between 200 and 300 of the early variation have been issued."

This place could use a bit of liveliness! My box full of treasures is out of the vault and spending the night at home - here's a pic of some of it - my beloved SB's (6 screwbacks of which one with doc, 2 pinbacks, and one rather ugly "thing"): Also, updated list of SB's which I am actively looking for in order to reunite with documents/group in my hands: Order of Sukh Baatar 48 Order of Sukh Baatar 86 Order of Sukh Baatar 500 Order of Sukh Baatar 605 Order of Sukh Baatar 695 Order of Sukh Baatar 1770 Please PM me if you have any of the above SB's in your hands!

Reverse

Here for something deep in a shoe box in a bank vault, spending the night at my house before going back to a safe place tomorrow. Socialist era hero star. The heart of my very small Yemen collection!

http://mongoliashop.de/shop/article_3021/Medaille-50-Mongolische-Repubilk-f%C3%BCr-Ausl%C3%A4nder-_-Medal-50-years-Mongolian-Republuc-for-foreigners.html?shop_param=cid%3D19%26aid%3D3021%26 opinions?

http://www.mongoliashop.de/ Some interesting items for sure, not sure the prices seduce me to buy straight away but it's a free world :cheers:

Hi Dolf, good to see you back I guess (not sure off top of my head) they are still awarded. If they are, it still leaves the question: are they awarding "classic" SB's (using up old stock) or are they issuing new ones? And how many of those "classic" SB's are out there? Are the new ones identical to the classic ones? etc. In any case, monstr is right: super order! From your post, it would appear that your 2006 is an awarded one then... but it still leaves the question of when the bank thing happened and unawarded ones came on the market

To be clear, I do not own the "foreign" one. However, and this will create some excitement among us Mongolia freaks, I have just been in contact with another Mongolia collector who ALSO has one of those foreign ones. Oh, and he bought it in Eastern Europe... roughly 35 years ago!!! Sounds to me like the benefit of the doubt should be on it being real. He mentioned the enamel looks high quality and aged. :jumping:

Yeiks - that's a HIGH number! Does the order show any wear, or is it maybe a non-awarded one?

Well, you still have many more collecting years ahead of you! Imagine 10 years from now still coming here to GMIC to discuss mongolian awards - surely we'll have access to research by then? :blush:

Looking for the following: Order of Sukh Baatar 48 Order of Sukh Baatar 86 Order of Sukh Baatar 605 Order of Sukh Baatar 695 Order of Sukh Baatar 1770 Please give a shout if you have either of these.

I am looking for the following: Hero of Labor - Soyombo 424 Order of Sukh Baatar 48 Order of Sukh Baatar 86 Order of Sukh Baatar 605 Order of Sukh Baatar 695 Order of Sukh Baatar 1770 Order of the Red Banner of Combat Valor 75 Order of the Red Banner of Combat Valor 2622 Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor 106 Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor 2333 Order of Combat Valor 791 Order of Combat Valor 1079 Order of Polar Star 1762 Order of Polar Star 3538 Order of Polar Star 4860 Order of Polar Star 6299 Order of Polar Star 17167 Order of Polar Star 18046 Order of Motherhood - 1st class 2755 Order of Motherhood - 2nd class 327 Medal 25 Years of the MPR 549 Medal 25 Years of the MPR 10723 Medal We Won 21406 Medal We Won 29811 Medal We Won 45873 Medal of Honorary Combat 454 Medal of Honorary Combat 4096 Medal of Honorary Combat 4901 Medal of Honorary Combat 6123 Medal of Honorary Combat 6708 Medal of Honorary Labor 3011 Medal of Honorary Labor 5388 Medal of Honorary Labor 14585 Partisan Badge 11

Aha, the reason i thought it was is that in my serial number list the serial numbers were already identified and I had put your name behind it. Probably means I got the serial numbers from your original serial number list 4 years ago yet it wasn't actually in your possession. So... another collector sold it via Zeige (where I got it).

Huh? that doesn;t make sense... why would the person who stole it write it? and how could the person from whom it was stolen write it?

A small motherhood group (finally) now in my collection. Have had to wait for years to get a combined 1st + 2nd class (and it also contains a 5 year plan badge). Also, the first class includes a pic. Vatjan, if I'm not mistaken this group once belonged to you?

For those interested, I've created a small database on the Soyombo medal with all known (at least, as far as i've been able to find) copies on the internet in recent years. Overall 30 entries ranging from nr 8 to nr 432 (!!!). Includes scans, qualification fake/good/unclear, and other details such as owner, where i found the scan, etc.. Typology is still an issue... due to unkown info, fakes, etc. - e.g. take a look at the link i provided to nr 425! It appears also that in a few cases I've seen duplicates of the same (fake) Soyombo... Am not going to post it in public so as not to give info to the bad guys, but happy to share with trusted members. Bob

Some great pictures here... http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=11805 And it looks like the bottom pic has a Soviet with: - cloth Soviet ribbons - and then a "old enamel style" Mongolian ribbon bar underneath!

http://www.president.mn/newsCenter/viewEvent.php?newsId=13&newsEvent= How could we have missed this!

Thanks Herr General:) Very, very, VERY useful info you sent me via PM. I take the liberty to put 2 links here (also so I can always find 'm back:)) http://www.operation-blackcock.com/ Website of a family member (!!!) who i didn't know and is specialized in the battle right around where my grandfather lived. A great slideshow highlighting the battle to push Germans over the Roer. http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/faculties/arts/1994/a.p.m.cammaert/ http://irs.ub.rug.nl/ppn/123909783 Dissertation about resistance etc. in this area... incl. reference to French POWs fleeing back to allied territory via Limburg: "Only 125 to 150 of the pilots succeeded in traversing the long overland route. The others nearly all fell into German hands." - hopefully French archives confirm the story as I heard it from family, i.e. a French pilot from the Elzas was aided by my grandfather in evading the Germans. Just had my mother on the phone, and turns out there's more documents available to illustratie this story... letters / postcards from the French pilot to my grandfather from long after the war. Apparently he was grateful for the assistance he received to the extent of feeling it saved his life. Will have to brush up on my French to read those documents. Next step now to contact the archives. Research is great, but when it also comes more close and personal it is truly exciting!

PM sent By the way, my grandfather to whom this award/documents were given was born, lived his whole life, and died in a house in St Odilienberg below the "hill" on which the church stands and close to a forest where there was quite some fighting during the war.

Did get a good medal, now for the archives... After some laziness i called the local French embassy and they (i.e. a very charming and helpful english speaking french lady!) promptly provided me with the contact details of the SECRETARIAT D'ETAT AUX ANCIENS COMBATTANTS. Will be sending off a letter in coming days. Fingers crossed to see if something can surface!