peter monahan

I know nothing about Serbian awards or badges but my first reaction to that kind of verdigris, cynic that I am, is that it could very well be covering a multitude of sins - imperfections in this case.

This is when being honest puts one well behind the pack in the race to make money! Wish I had the imagination and Chutzpah to do this kind of thing. But then I'd have to sleep at night, so perhaps not. I did, however, buy any number of old carving set boxes once upon a time just because I like old wooden boxes. Never occurred to mew to use them for anything other than keeping trinkets in though. 'Bother!', as Pooh says.

The First Battalion of the 57th was in Limerick and Dublin from 1881 to 1897 but the 2nd Bttn was in Madras [1881], Rangoon, Burma and Secunderbad [1884]. The two battalions of the Sussex regiment seem to have been in Cyprus and 'Buttevante' [?] from 1880 to at least 1885. Here's the source I used: http://www.remthepast.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/location.html I hope that's some help.

And, I bet money, still has some reference to the Prince of Wales on its kit or in its regalia. If IA units can get away with carrying battle honours from the Mutiny, I'm sure the traditions of the CIH are alive as well. And welcome to the GMIC, Anand! Its always nice to have more representation from the sub-continent as well as Europe and North America, especially on topics like this one. Peter

And no wonder. A lovely set of gongs! Peter

I agree: something that's been mocked up to represent a naval hero; probably Nelson.

I must respectfully disagree, Dante. As I know from having commanded them albeit only at re-enactments of Naopleonic battles, a 'wing' is generally half of whatever formation is on the field. In the case of an infantry regiment whose full strength was present, the left wing would be four companies, probably A-D [or 1-4] and the right wing would be th other four. In a brigade, the left wing would probably be two battalions - with attached scouts, etc - and thr right wing the same. It's an ad hoc arrangement arising from the over all commander of a force deciding to split that force for tactical reasons, so the 'wing' has no real existance off the field. Given a large enough force one could, in theory, split it into two wings and have one of the wing commanders subsequently split his force again into two halves. The wings are designated by the field commander and may not always be equal in strength, but that is the simplist version - the commander splits his command and each wing then has the full attention of a subordinate commander, either the original CO and a subordnate, or two subordiantes, with the CO exercising oversight of both wings.

Now that I've wiped the droll off my laptop, wow! One comment, Chris, on the light issue. I took a conservation course a few years ago now as part of a Museum Studies certificate, and one class we had was on lighting and LED display lighting. State of the art is fibre optics, so that one lights exactly the artifact and nothing else. The bonus is that the light so delivered is without UV and infrared, the elements which damage cloth, wood and so on. I'm not sure about cost, as I don't have a museum, or even a man cave, so I didn't care much, but you might consider at least looking into it. The US National Parks Conservation Asscoiation is, I'm pretty sure, the group who publish a whole series of conservation articles, aimed at historic sites and museusm, and may have some useful advice available on-line. I'm prety sure that's where i stole info. and ideas for some papers I did at the time. Lovely lovely stuff. Thanks for sharing!

I agree completely that the hobby is becoming less and less accessible but, sadly or not, that is the reality of collecting things which they 'aren't making anymore'. By its nature, what we're interested in is mainly 'limited edition'. Sure, for WWI and WWII the numbers were only limited to hundreds of thousands or even millions, but it's been 100 years and 70 years respectively since the stuff appeared and every year X% goes into the ground, the fire or is simply lost, so inevtiably rarity goes up and with it, price. The very first medal I ever bought was one of 50-60 in a cigar box, all silver WWI medals on their way to a jeweller's furnace because the price of silver had just hit $11.00 Canadian an ounce. Many of Canada's silver coins went to the same place that year [1985-6?]. Add the very things which make them attractive - rareity, for the gallantry awards, aesthetic and historical value for some of the orders, and one has a recipe for endless inflation. How many times have you heard 'Oh, we threw those away.'? I don't know that there is a solution, except perhaps to hope that some of the rich bidders will decide to switch hobbies [or investments]. These days I focus on research and get, I tell myself, as much fun from a singleton campaign medal whose history I reconstruct, as Lord poobah does from the latest VS he's snapped up. That's what I tell myself!

Saad, Thank you for the additional information. 34 years is impressive in any man's army! If I hadn't just come back from an out of the country hioliday, I'd be looking up your ebay posting to check the price! Good luck with the sale, though. Peter

Very nice, though I don't think I'd want it in my car if the peelers stopped me, even labelled as it is.

I'm afraid, despite my last name, my knowledge of Irish military heraldry falls on the scale somewhere between 'little' and 'nil'. Not even sure how one would research that, frankly.

Interesting! I wonder what qualifications, other thasn the right schools, he may have had for working with MI6 on the 'Portugal portfolio' or whatever it was called.

I can't see any reference which would suggest that the Africa Star was authorized for Middle East operations but anyone who satisfied the requirements of 'six months service in an operational command', which Paiforce undoubtedly did, should have qualified for the 1939-45 Star and War Medal, I would think. Very little information on this area partly because it was a 'bit of a sideshow' to the main campaigns and perhaps because, legally speaking, the Allied presence in an originally neutral nation was a bit dodgy, thought that latter is my guess only, not based on what little I've read so far.

A number of the bars were awarded largely to Indian Army troops. The S. Persia, for example, is known to three Indian infantry units, 30 Squadron RAF and a handful of British officesr and NCOs. The N. Kurdistan was awarded only to Iraq levies and 3 RAF squadrons, while the Iraq bar [1919-1920] was the only one awarded in large numbers, to members of three infantry divisions - about 2/3 Indian and 1/3 British, roughly - plus a Cavalry brigade and support and Lof C troops, so likely a couple thousand bars in all. My copy of Gordon's Battles and Medals [1962 edition] lists units for the bars but says in most cases that the lists are incomplete. Not sure what other sources would be better.

Thanks! The computer kicked me oput of the forum and seems to have done that in the process. Fixed now.

Presumably the same criteria and logic would apply to anyone who, say, prepped attack aircraft for action in the Middle East from a base in Italy or Katar: he did the hours/work/service but wasn't ever in a combat zone. At the risk of opening a whole can of worms, I think I detect a little bit of the modern notion that 'everybody runs the race and everybody gets a prize'. In another thread on a different forum there was reference to a 'new' WWII campaign star, for the men who did the Murmansk runs. The Arctic Star may be a legitimate way to recognize exceptionally hazardous service but it also opens the door, at least in theory, to an endless stream of 'worthy of recognition additions to the gallery of honours and awards; D-Day bars to the rance and germany Star or a Chindits bar to the Burma Star or, in the US context, clasps for specific island campaigns. While I perfectly understand the need and desire to recognize service, I'm not sure why it is thought necessary to encapsulate a man or woman's entire career in a series of ribbons and metal devices. Presumably If I wear a 'Nam era Bronze star, people who need or want to know will figure out, or ask, whether I got it for being 'shot over' or for running a great depot.

I meant to ask, regarding earlier posts, whether the bee on some of the Dahomeyan awards is borrowed from France - either a Napoleonic allusion or a reference to the bee as a symbol of industry - or whether it is an indigenous symbol. It doesn't appear on the coat of arms and I don't see references to it in a quick look for 'national symbols'.

Intersting notion! And, no not giggling at all. OTOH, Kipling was very careful to refer to the regiments in his stories by either clearly fictional names - The Princess Hohenzoolern's Fore and Fit Infantry - or unoffcial nicknames such as 'The Holy Chrisitians', which moniker was I believe meant to refer to one of the Guards battalions who went to India in the 1880s after 60 years home service. So, I suspect that the regimental standard of the 'Black Tyrones' was meant to be unlike any actual regiment's crest. [See, dear, all those hours spent reading Kipling in university, instead of writing essays, did finally pay off! ]

A quick look through Gordon's British Battles and Medals doesn't suggest any equivalent activities by Indian troops, who would have been the likeliest to be pottering about in that area, for either the IGS or MGS medals.

Well doen, to identify this, 922F! Dana, is this something you have in your possession? It would be interesting, if that's the case, to figure out how it got out of Chad, as one wouldn't expect these to have had a very wide circulation.

Michael It's not ringing bells with me and I have only one basic book on formation badges. I may get my wrist slapped for this by my colleagues - sending you elsewhere, that is - but you might try the British Badge Forum.

duplicate post.

I spent two years in Bauchi State, just north of Jos, on the edge of the central plateau. I was teaching at a teachers' training college under the auspices of an organization called CUSO, a sort of canadian version of the Peace Corps. Bauchi State was just on the edge of the savannah country in n orthern Nigeria and perhaps one third of my students were Hausa, the rest being a mix, especially because my school was Chrisitian, not Muslim. I was able to see traditional warriors and chiefs from Bauchi, Kano and Sokoto in my travels but only as a tourist and never got a close look at the weaponry. I had a very nice Turage sword which got lost in transit when I travelled out of Niger and a much less well made example which I managed to get home, but modern tourist work, as I was on a very limited budget and certainly not bididng on older pieces. Your 'extended' blade is fascinating. I can imagine that it would seem very solid but not sure I'd trust my life to it on the battlefield. OTOH, it would certainly be a prestigious thing to carry and perhaps as strong as a one piece blade - only a sword smith could say for sure. Thank you for sharing it!

Any idea what he did to earn these awards? Was he a civil servant, a scholar, or some other person of note? Just curious.