Solomon

Much better picture now... Now we are moving to phase II: Is the LDH2 a silver gilden or a real golden one? The same question needs to be answered for the LD3. Somehow I have the feeling, that the LDH2 was awarded after 1918...

Sorry, but these pictures are not helping at all, as they are even smaller, than the previous one...

Damn...looks easy, but in fact it isn´t....without a closeup on the ribbonbar, I cannot step forward. But as you already assumed, this looks pretty much like a guy from Lippe-Detmold. Do I see a 1897- and 1905-medal Lippe-Detmold at the end of the ribbon bar? By the way, I will forward my address to you...you can already send it to me :-P

Sure, it´s a wartime ribbon...but the way the ribbons are mounted (Saxony before Prussia) clearly doesn´t match with Tasche. So the only way to find out is to read 22,000 receipts :-P

Very nice, Albrecht Tasche would be glad. But I doubt, that the ribbonbar fits to Tasche....the earlist award of Tasche was the 1905-medal, which is completely missing at the ribbon bar. And he got the SH3 earlier than the SA3X (as he didn´t list the SA3X in 1916, when he received the cross for heroic deeds). And finally the ribbonbar is a typical Saxon-style, wearing first the awards from Saxony followed by the Prussian IC. Albrecht Tasche was a Lippe-Detmold citizen, who never would have done this.

Hello David, here you are...a close up on the Detmold-awards and on the red eagle order. All miniatures are around 16 mm...very small, but extremely nice detailed. The needle at the chain is marked with SILBER and I´m not 100 % sure, but for the house order seems to be a golden piece. But unfortunately I have to correct myself: The Leopold-order 3rd class in this version was acc. to Schwark only 16 times awarded!!! Regards Roman

Sure, I will put them on a scanner on tomorrow...

Hello gents, thanks to a hint from a collector-friend (thank you again), I was able to add this nice miniature-chain to my collection. You see - Prussia Iron cross 2nd class 1914 - Prussia Red Eagle order 4th class - Prussia cross for war aid - Lippe-Detmold house order 3rd class (372 awards) - Lippe-Detmold Leopold-order 2nd model 3rd class without crown (only around 25 awards!!!) This combination is pretty unique and according to the rolls, there is only one possible candidate (already marked in the rolls with red eagle order, war-aid cross, house-order and Leopold-order): Conrad Trauthan, Koeniglich Preussischer Gewerbeinspektor in Bielefeld, born in Culm, 22nd November 1865 He got the Leopold-order as No. 24 of the rolls on 1st July 1907 and the house-order 3rd class as No. 409 on 7th September 1912 (without getting the 4th class before). It would be interesting to know, if the referring medalbar still exists, as Trauthan was already marked in the rolls with the Prussian awards. I hope you like these little fellows like I do. Best regards Roman

Indeed, while discussing with Andreas about Multhaup and crosschecking the award lists, only one possible candidate remained: Georg Mönnig, Postverwalter in Schieder-Schwalenberg, born 19th August in 1855 He got: - Silver and Golden merit cross of the house-order Lippe-Detmold - merit cross Leopold-order Lippe-Detmold - merit cross of the combatants.club Lippe-Detmold - 1897 medal Lippe-Detmold - 1905-cross Lippe-Detmold (In this list he was named as Georg Mönning, I checked my copies) For sure he got also the war merit medal Lippe-Detmold after 1915. And this medal in combination with my ribbon-bar and Andreas´ nice photo shows exactly, that the medalbar at the Thies auction cannot be from Multhaup. Multhaup had already 1915 the cross of the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen Prussia and a long service medal Prussia.The bar at Thies is after 1915 due to the war merit medal (awarded since 1915) and there is no reason, why the Prussian awards are missing, while Multhaup is wearing them at his ribbonbar. In addition I was always wondering why the miniature chain was showing a war merit cross and not a war merit medal at the 1st position....now I know ;-) Regards and special thanks to Andreas for the final clarification on Multhaup Roman

One important remark and I'm sure Andreas will confirm this, too: The medalbar sold via Thies is NOT the one from Multhaup, no matter if it declared as Multhaup's medalbar!!! This medalbar belonged to somebody else.

Here you are... -IC 2nd class -long service award - medal for South West Africa -Lippe-Detmold order for art and science 2nd class with oakleaves (Lippische Rose) -Lippe-Detmold house order -Lippe-Detmold Leopold-order

Hehe, somehow yes... By the way the document was signed by "Dr. Freiherr (Georg) von Eppstein", who was editior for the Ordens-Almanach in Berlin. I have his ribbonbar in my collection :-)

Are you sure with the name von Koppenfels? I cannot find him in the award-lists... Here is my latest purchase...quite famous name, he is Herrmann´s son...

Perfect explanation by Eric...I have only one important remark: Not only the rolls until 1918 are still existing in the arcives, but also the rolls after 1918. Lippe-Detmold awarded certain orders until 1933, partly even later. And that's the reason, why for me it is 100 % sure, that these pinback crosses were never officially awarded. By the way, the statutes of the war merit cross and for the cross for heroic deeds are printed on the back of each award document and were never changed. There is only one exception, as the statues describe the crosses as gilden crosses, for which only Bronce should be used. But in 1918 around 80 crosses were delivered in zinc...very rare crosses, officially awarded but not correct, if you follow strictly the statues. I only know my own cross so far, if you find another one...keep it in any circumstances.

Hi Eric, as you are quoting my website, I´m really curious to see photos people wearing this type of cross. According to the rolls it was never forseen to issue such a cross (might be called 1st class of the war merit cross Lippe-Detmold). It was not realized until 11th November 1918, when prince Leopold IV. had to resign. For me personally these pin-crosses are samples, created in case a 1st class would have been issued. I had the cross shown on my website personally in my hands and spent a lot of time to compare it with the normal war merit cross and the cross for heroic deeds. I agree that your cross is a pre-1945 piece. So if you have a photo, documents etc please show us :-) Regards Roman

I rather prefer a Gendarm Friedrich Koch....but that name makes it impossible to trace the IC 1870, as there are several Friedrich Koch listed. The SVK and 1897 medal match already.

Very nice bar Do you also have a name?

I know these screwback-variants, I have a similar one in my collection...but these variants are not the official awarded ones, but private purchases.

You are unfortunately only partly right. This group came via a dealer for antiques directly from the family. The dealer knew that beside the documents also Kellner II´s uniform, cased epaulettes (!) and saber were still existing. When the old lady (granddaughter of Kellner II) passed away, the equipment was immediately sold and only the documents "survived" as a group. So the uniform and epaulettes (also extremely rare, because only worn in that way until 1867) are still somewhere around. I´m pretty sure, that the epaulettes (cased) were sold by Weitze a few years ago. Greetings Roman

Here are pictures from my original ones. C.F. Zimmermann was the only official supplier of these crosses. The first shown cross from bryansk1959 is known copy, often appearing on Ebay... Greetings Roman

Yes, unfortunately it wasn´t my observation, but another collector gave me this hint, when I showed the photo. I was much more focussed on the Lippe documents, when I bought all the paper and didn´t recognize the speciality about the the crown order. By the way another collector shared the number of awards: 211 crown order 3rd class with swords were awarded for 1866. This figure includes also the ones for foreigners, which was logically much lower!

No, not really. Until 1867 Lippe-Detmold had his own independant "army", the last leader was Kellner II. It was a bataillon with around 400 soldiers and officers. It was trained and paid by the principal. Kellner II negotiated with Prussian in these soldiers were integrated in the Prussian army ( 6. Westfälisches Infanterie-Regiment No.55 ). So in 1870 / 71 the Lippe soldiers were ruled by the Prussians (and were awarded with Prussian orders like the long service awards). That makes for example this long service cross Lippe-Detmold (officially awarded only until 1867) extremely rare. Until 1867 these Lippe soldiers were officially "foreigners" for the Prussians, e.g. like the Bavarians.

The picture was taken between September 1866 and December 1869, most probably between 1866 and 1867. On the medalbar you can see: - Prussian order of the crown 3rd class with swords But….what the hell is wrong here??? Is it a wearing mistake, as the order should be worn normally at the black-white combatant ribbon ??? No…everything is correct here…Kellner II wears the order at the light blue ribbon for foreigners! In 1866 (before the Lippe-Detmold army was integrated into the Prussian army) he was a foreigner to Prussia. - military merit medal Lippe-Detmold (awarded on 30th March 1863) Unfortunately this document is missing in the group… - long service cross for 25 years Lippe-Detmold - campaign-medal 1866 Lippe-Detmold Unfortunately this document is also missing in the group… The intersting point here is, that commander Kellner II awarded his soldiers with the campaign medal, while he and the other officers got it directly from prince Lippe-Detmold. Picture 11a shows Major Kellner II Kellner II retired on 23rd December 1867. He was the one, negotiating with the Prussian about the integration of the small army of Lippe-Detmold into the Prussian army. He was also allowed to wear his uniform after his retirement. Document 12: Retirement On 5th November 1869 Kellner II awarded as Major a.D. the common house-order Lippe-Detmold & Schaumburg-Lippe 1st class (with the crown). He was No. 13 of the list out of 64 awards in total. Document 13: Award document for the common house order 1st class Detmold & Schaumburg Document 13a Consigment of the documents Document 14 a and b = statutes of the common house-order, version from 25th October 1869. In this document group there are also a lot of letters to his parents, exercises he had to do during his time as a student and the application for becoming a student, written by his father in 1842 in several versions. There are also a lot of letters of relatives etc…too much to show and less interesting. I hope you liked this deep look into the military history of the small principal Lippe-Detmold until 1867. Best regards Roman

Hi gents, inspired by the medalbar with 1866 campaign medal Lippe-Detmold, I just showed, I would like to share with you a extremely rare document-group I recently added to my collection: Hermann Kellner was born in Detmold on 23rd May 1823 as the 2nd son of Amtaccessor Karl Friedrich Kellner. Document 1 “birth document” On 26th April 1842 he became a student („Volontär“) at the Divisionsschule in Münster/Westfalia. His classmates were Eduard Pustkuchen (his uniform is shown in the museum of local history in Detmold) and Carl Großkopf (later commander of Torgau). Document 2 letter of acceptance at the school and an introduction of his duties (and rights). On 10th December he was promoted from a Volontär to Portepee-Fähnrich. „Serenissimus haben höchstgnädigst geruht, in Hinsicht der eingegangenen guten Zeugnisse, den bisherigen Volontair Hermann Kellner zum Portepeefähnrich zu ernennen, worüber demselben die erforderliche Urkunde von mir übersandt werden wird….“ Kellner II served as Lippischer Füsilier, the only bataillon of Lippe-Detmold and ruled by the prince of Lippe-Detmold. The Lippische Füsiliere („Das lippische Kontingent“) was already fighting against Napoleon together with the Prussians. Document 3 Promotion Prince Leopold promoted Herrmann Kellner II on 15th October 1844 to „Seconde-Lieutnant. „ Wir (Leopold) urkunden hiermit, daß Wir den Portepeefähnrich Hermann Kellner zum Seconde-Lieutnant in unserem Militair-Corps gnädigst ernannt haben. Wir erwarten von Ihm Treue gegen uns, Gehorsam gegen seinen Vorgesetzen, strenge Befolgung der Gesetze im Allgemeinen, insbesondere den bestehenden und künftigen Militair-Verordnungen im Dienst-Reglement, Ordnung, Fleiß ….“ Document 4 Promotion to Seconde-Lieutnant Document 4a Congratulation for becoming Seconde-Lieutnant Picture 4b Drawing showing him in the uniform as Seconde-Lieutnant On 27th February 1849 Kellner II was promoted by prince Leopold to a Premier-Lieutnant. Document 5 Promotion to Premier-Lieutnant Document 6 a and b letters from the frontline (war against the Danish) , sent on 10th July 1849 to his brother Karl And finally on 10th May 1859 Kellner II was promoted to a Hauptmann and Kompanie-Chef (chief of the company). Document 7 Promotion to Hauptmann Document 7a Information of the Fürstlich Lippischen Militair-Kolloquium , that his salary will be adjusted according to his promotion. On 7th December 1861 prince Leopold agreed tot he marriage of Kellner II with Marie Niemeyer. Document 8 Agreement Picture 8a with his wife and son Kellner is wearing the uniform as Premier-Lieutnant. The picture was taken between middle of 1862 and March 1863. On 19th April 1866 Kellner II awarded the long servce cross for 25 years Lippe-Detmold. Original text oft he document: Nachdem Sie unter Berücksichtigung das als Kriegsjahr doppelt zu rechnende Jahr 1849 nunmehr 25 Jahre in Meinem Militär-Corps treu gedient haben, habe ich Ihnen Mein Dienstauszeichnungskreuz verliehen. Dasselbe erfolgt nebst dem dazu gehörigen Bande hierfür. Detmold, den 19. April 1866 Leopold, PFEL. …As war-service in the year 1849 has to be counted double, you served now 25 years in my Militär-Corps and therefor I award you with my long service cross and the referring ribbon. Kellner was one of only 16 (!!!) officers, awarded with this long service cross for 25 years, which was donated on 11th June 1859 by prince Leopold. After the integration of the Lippsche Füsiliere into the Prussian army in 1867, only one additional cross was awarded. All other awarded the Prussian version. Document 9 Award document for the long-service cross 25 years Lippe-Detmold On 15th August 1866 Leopold promoted Kellner II to a Major and commander of Lippe-Detmold´s small army. His predessor was Major and commander Carl Rohdewald, who was killed in the battle at Kissingen on 10th July 1866. Document 10 Promotion to Major and commander On 20th September 1866 Kellner II awarded as „Führer des Fürstlich Lippischen Füssilierbataillons" (leader of the bataillon of the Lippischen Füsiliere) the Prussian order of the crown 3rd class with swords . Document 11 Award document

Hello Gerd, sorry, only two out of four awards were correctly named...the 1866 medal and the Military Merit Medal. Especially the first one with swords is unique...if I would have shown the award document for it, you still would be confused ;-) The first one is from Prussia, the the other unknown one is a extremly rare one from Lippe-Detmold. Just keep in mind that all of his awards were awarded before 1867 ;-) I will show all documents of Major Kellner II in a seperate topic, because it is worth to go more in details. Regards Roman