Schießplatzmeister

Hello folks: An interesting item to be sure! This item is without a doubt a FORGERY. At no time was this thing AWARDED to anyone. This is one of the more-common copies about. It does appear to be gold interestingly enough. Someone has also "aged" it artificially. Things that I don't like about it: 1) The eagles are lack significant detail generally and are crude to say the least. 2) The eagles beaks are closed. 3) The eagles feet are not separate from their legs. 4) There are lines at the top and the bottom of the letters "U" and "R" connecting them. 5) The general finish to the enamel and metalwork is not consistant with known originals. This fellow's story to go with this item is interesting to say the least and makes no sense. This is a known copy of a WWI-type PLM. I wouldn't want this thing for free if it were given to me! "SPM"

Hello Hardy: Thank you! It will be interesting to see what they come up with. I never thought that a little postcard could be so interesting! "SPM"

Hello Ulsterman: Good thinking! OK then. Does anyone out there have a regimental history for the k.b. 16. RIR during WWI? I wonder if there is a photo of the TKM recipient Eichinger in it? Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again everyone: Eichinger was on leave at Uttenhofen bei Dinkelscherben in Schwaben. Looking at a map, this place is so small that I doubt that they even have a traffic light. It is a mostly rural farming area approximately 31.5 km from Augsburg. I think that the population of the area was probably rather small before and during the time of the Weltkrieg. I believe that this also increases the odds that the TKM recipient is the same fellow. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: I agree with Stogieman! The first position ribbon does not look like a TKM ribbon as there is no black to be seen in it. The photo is of rather poor quality though and the photographic process sometimes does strange things with ribbon colors (three of the ribbons look "bleached-out"). I still believe though that he is the TKM recipient as: 1) He has the same name. 2) He has the same rank. 3) He if from the same town. The odds are that this is him in my opinion. The field ribbon bar IS a mystery though! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Stogieman: Not only is the seller offering this "rare" field ribbon bar for a mere $300, but he is has also split-up the recipient's decorations! The recipient's awards will be scattered to the wind, never to be put back together again! I just don't get it! Why do people do this? I guess that there is plenty of greed and ignorance out there to go around. Yet another sad tale. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Ulsterman: Was the "little corporal" in the 3. Kompanie (I apologize for not knowing the details of his Weltkrieg service)? Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Everyone: So it appears as though Feldwebelleutnant Eichinger didn't have enough fun during the war! Off to the Baltic to join the Border Guards and fight with the White Russians against the Bolsheviks. I guess anything else would have made him bored! A true soldier! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again: Yes, Stogieman, another sad story indeed! It is so unfortunate that some collectors and dealers look at these magnificent pieces of history only as "things" and do not look deeper at what they represent (insanely brave deeds to stop an enemy attack, saving a wounded comrade under fire, capturing an enemy position and equipment, etc. etc.....). Some brave soldier actually did something rather death-defying (in most cases) and significant to be awarded these medals. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello folks: I want all of you to know that Stogieman has graciously offered me the field ribbon bars that go with this group (and I have accepted of course). He is not motivated by money, but by what is right. I am touched by his generosity and his desire to see things items re-united for the sake of history. These items will now stay together as they should! If only there were more good souls like him, this hobby (and the world) would be so much better! THANK YOU STOGIEMAN! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello folks: Yes, sad but true, I can confirm that the original group was broken-up. I am now in possession of the mounted group, and Stogie fortunately has the field ribbon bars back. So, the group is "sort of" back together geographically after a European tour. It certainly is strange what happens to these things! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello A Collector and welcome: I would just like to add a few comments about my interaction with the current seller of the piece in question. First I would like all to know that I have no personal or business relationship with the seller and that my comments are unsolicited. We must all remember that the seller sells a wide range of items. It is therefore difficult for him to be a specialist in all areas and to know everything about these types of items. His return policy which is posted on his website is very fair. In my previous personal interactions with him (both buying and selling), I have found him to be a man of his word. There was a recent post regarding questionable RAO IV pieces that he offered. As soon as he became aware of their dubious origin, he took appropriate action (according to the postings). Saschaw is completely correct regarding his comments. As Saschaw pointed out, unfortunately, once pieces change hands a few times, their true history becomes obscure. Complete garbage becomes legitimized in this way. Sadly, the forgeries are getting better in this area of collecting. I believe that the future is not good in this regard either. As "values" of these items rise, the criminal forgers get better at their game. This forum is a great aid to all collectors as the information can spread regarding what is good and more importantly, what is not good! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello all: In my opinion, Saschaw is correct, a 15 years service cross should go in the last position. The recipient was probably at least an Unteroffizier (based upon his MVOMVKIIm/schw. award). He had been around for awhile pre-war most likely. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: Scott, RAO is 100% correct and knows what he is talking about. These copies are well-known in Germany. Sorry! Yankee, yes there ARE nice-looking (at arm's length anyway) GOLD RAO II and III copies out there. I have seen them offered by someone from Hamburg. They are well made, but not as good as the originals. I think that perhaps they were being made by jewelers to the east of Germany (Poland?, Russia?, etc......). Caveat emptor! "SPM"

Sorry: I am having trouble with my system and I hit the "Add reply" button once too many times. "SPM"

Hello again Scott: OK, the dealer NOW letting you know what else "came with it" makes it easy to decide! RUN AWAY! Perhaps these are some of the pieces that he found ON the bar when he received it? Perhaps these are some of the pieces that belong on it. Something seems a bit strange here. "SPM"

Hello Scott: Here is some advice I will share (I know that no one asked for it!). If you have to think about this bar this much, you should probably pass on it! Save your money for the bar that you see, and know in an instant is good (you will always be happy with that one!). There will be other bars that come along that will be for the right price and will be without a doubt in your mind 100% genuine. If you have doubts now, these worries will possibly grow after you own it. Also, at some point you will have to convince someone else that it is OK to get rid of it. The bottom line is, that no matter how many folks look at it and say it looks OK, YOU have to be happy with it. I have always fared well by avoiding items that cause me the slightest doubts regarding authenticity. Now, that being said, I do not like the EKII, nor do I like the KVK. I think they both possibly look like higher-quality copies! Best regards, "SPM"

Heiko and Stogie are right! The fellow added his Ehrenkreuz to his WWI-era medal group. Had it been properly re-mounted, the EKII would be in the first position, followed by the Ehrenkreuz, FAM, and his Sachsen LS Medal. I have seen other bars like this with economical additions to the bar added by the recipient. Sometimes, pieces of metal or even cardboard were added as a backing to extend the bar. The result isn't pretty, but the fellow wore it with pride. These types of bars are certainly genuine and interesting! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello folks: I believe that Ulsterman was a bit generous in lumping me in with the other folks mentioned! I discussed it all with the Mrs. and she stated that I don't know a bl**din thing! Welcome broken9597 to the forum! As someone stated, the "authentication" process in this business is sometimes a bit off. I just saw a "PLM with Oakleaves" today on Ebay. The illustrious dealer who is selling this piece of trash mentions that he is "well known" (yes, so many have been shafted by this fellow that no one can forget him!). For everything that he sells he mentions that the product offered is "the real deal". This fellow can't stop waisting oxygen soon enough as far as I am concerned. Folks like him have ruined collecting for a great many. Sorry about the diatribe! I notice three (3) things immediately about your piece: 1) The ribbon without a doubt is the 1870's-era issued ribbon (harder to find than the cross!). 2) Someone cleaned the piece. As a person who started collecting coins this sort of thing makes me cringe! But I know that most medal folks don't care. I personally like things that have a nice patinae. 3) The small enamel cracking/chip on the reverse is the greatest detractor regarding value. We can be a bit pickey when looking for pieces for our collection. In all, an interesting piece that from what I see looks authentic. Congratulations regarding your find. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Chris: To the best of my knowledge (as limited as it often is) there are no known sources for the citations regarding these awards. However, even though I do not own a copy, I believe that Nickel may have possibly covered some of the actions leading to the awards of 100 soldiers of so. I also believe that Ophaus may have mentioned the actions of a few soldiers in one of his smaller books. Unfortunately, the citations however have never come to light as far as I know. One would have to look for the Regimental history for a particular unit to acquire further specific knowledge (if it exists). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again: A great question. These medals were at the first part of WWI struck in 14 carat gold (585/1000). I do not recall off-hand if these were marked "585" on the ring or not. However, to the best of my recollection, they were marked thusly. All gilded-silver medals are supposedly "copies" as they were not issued (as Rick mentioned). But "copy" in this instance means something worn by the actual recipient, and not something made last week (although undoubtedly some folks have gotten creative and started gilding silver medals to increase the "value"). To me, the "800" mark on the ring is a sign that this is an older "copy". I image that it was not uncommon for a recipient to keep his genuine gold medal at home in the case and to wear a silver-gilt medal on his mounted bar. The gold medals were rather generously awarded (compared to the "gold class" awards of the other Kingdoms). I have seen cast copies of the "333" gold medals, so beware when looking to purchase one. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Scott: What a beautiful bar (as all of yours are)! Thank you for sharing it with us. To clarify, a "333" mark is for 333/1000 parts gold. This tranlates into 8/24 on the carat scale. Thus, the medal is approximately 8 carat gold. This is the last type that was issued. It is amazing that W?rttemberg issued medals with gold in them right up to the end of the war! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: I believe that the 4th medal from the left is the Bavarian Agricultural Jubilee Medal to be more specific. So, we have a farmer, soldier, and fireman. A busy fellow! I also believe that this photograph went to a collector in Bavaria . Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Scott: Yes, such a thing is possible in particular circumstances. Regarding this particular bar, I am at a lost to explain it. I am certain that there are others here who can however. Specifically, I have seen groups to Gendarmerie members that had Prussian long-service awards and long-service awards for their particular state perculiar to police service. I believe that there are also other possiblities such as Seebatailon troops, etc. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Herr General: Congratulations regarding this nice group of miniatures. Unfortunately, since the RAO is a 4th Class and the recipient was from the Netherlands, there is probably no way of finding out more about it from German records (there were simply too many RAO IV awards made domestically, and to foreigners). Perhaps there are rank lists or "Court and State Handbooks" for the Netherlands which will possibly show who the recipient may be. Best regards, "SPM"