Schießplatzmeister

Hello Tony: Thank you for submitting the interesting photograph. I am not a specialist regarding rank insignia, so I will leave that issue to the many experts here at the forum. The ribbon in the soldier's buttonhole under the EK ribbon seems to be white with very narrow dark-coloured stripes (due to the spacing that is shown). It is difficult to be certain, but my best guess is that the ribbon is for a Bremen Hanseatic cross as this is the only ribbon with this pattern that was commonly awarded. If this is the case, then this is a very interesting photograph indeed, as I have not seen a photo with this ribbon before. Note that it is difficult to be shure however! I'm shure there is someone out there who can help regarding the soldier's unit (and rank), which might give more of a clue as to exactly what ribbon is there! Is there any writing on the rear of the photograph? Thank you, "SPM"

Hello Laurie: I found the movie "Joyeux No?l" by the French director Christian Carion listed at www.imdb.com where there is more information regarding it. I would like to get a copy too! It looks like an interesting movie, thanks for bringing it to my attention! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again: I forgot to comment on the ribbon which looks like an old silk Prussian lifesaving medal ribbon (although a bit too orange perhaps in the photo/scan). Note that although not the standard RAO ribbon, such a ribbon was possible under extremely-rare special circumstances. Perhaps Rick Research or Medalnet could fill us in regarding the RAO awards with lifesaving ribbons. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello folks: I'd just like to throw in my "two cents" regarding this piece. If one looks closely, you will see that the eagle in the medallion is not of the same design as usually encountered pieces. In fact, although the colour looks correct, its execution looks a bit sloppy! I have NEVER seen this type of eagle on a last-type 4th Class cross before. It looks suspiciously very much like the eagles I have seen on counterfeit smooth-armed badges that have been circulating during the last few years and have been generally accepted as genuine. The cross body looks fine. So, this begs the question, is this a rare variety not seen before?, or a well-executed copy? I would RUN away from it at any price! Look to the thread started today by the gentleman from Belgium to see a "standard" Wagner piece. THAT is the type of piece that you want to spend your money on! Thanks, "SPM"

Hello Vatjan: Congratulations, you have a very nice example of the last type of the 4th Class RAO. These have been going up in price lately. I would say that the average market price seems to be about EUR 200 lately. Old ribbon stock is not easily found, but it exists in the hands of collectors. I'm sure that a modern nylon ribbon could easily be had for a few dollars, until you might find an original piece. I hope that this helps! "SPM"

Hello Wildcard: Sorry for the poor scan, but this format won't allow me to load anything with higher resolution yet. The medal in the middle is the Silver Medal for "Arts and Letters", Oscar II of Sweden/Norway. It is marked "L.A." for Lea Ahlborn. These medals were awarded from 1859-1905/7. The first medal has the die-sinker's mark "HELFRICHT F." and is 18mm in diameter. This of course was the Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha medal for Civic Merit/Arts and Sciences (1835-37, or 1837-58 coinage, I am not sure which). The third cross is still a bit of a mystery. It is like a merit cross of the S.E.H.O., but with a hinged crown. It is made of silver. I have not been able to nail down any official award which looked like it. The reverse simply has the center of a S.E.H.O. merit cross. It would seem strange that the first two awards were made so precisely, but the third seems like a "fantasy" piece. Maybe there is someone out there who can identify it. This recipient also received a Carl XV of Sweden (1859-1872) gold medal. It is not known exactly what that award was as the reverse could not be seen. Unfortunately, that particular miniature piece (buttonhole miniature with ribbons) was purchased by someone else (I did TRY to get it!). Whoever the recipient was, he was rather accomplished in his field (Science, Art, Literature?). Thanks for your interest! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Gents: Rick thanks for all of your very thorough work. Thank you also webr55 for finding Rick's old thread. All of this information sure makes this "ugly" little ribbon bar a bit more interesting! "SPM"

[attachmentid=26645] Here is a closer scan of the Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha medal. "SPM"

[attachmentid=26644] Hello Wildcard: Here is one of my favorite Arts and Sciences groupings! "SPM"

[attachmentid=26643] And, here is the example that I spoke of previously, but couldn't get an image posted for. "SPM"

[attachmentid=26642] Hello folks: Here is another example a buttonhole ribbon for the 2nd, 3rd, etc. positions for the front of the tunic. "SPM"

[attachmentid=26641] Hello again Chris: Here is what the missing pieces look like. I hope that this helps! "SPM"

Hello Chris: I believe that the first award was a Saxon Civil Merit Order, 2nd model, Knight's Cross 2nd Class with swords, next would be a Saxon Albert Order, Knight's Cross 2nd Class with swords. Both of these were of course WWI award pieces to a junior Officer and would be made of silver/silver-gilt. Yes, you are right, now an expensive proposition to find these. There was a time....when no one cared about Saxon awards and they could be had cheaply (my first Albert Order 2nd Class Knight cost $60!!!). I have seen the Civil Merit Order knight's badges go for CRAZY prices lately in Germany. The book by Arnold, Keil, and Weber really caused a price spike in recent years, along of course with the bettering of the economy of Saxony as it got farther away from the times of the DDR. You are looking at easily over $600 to restore it (and this is a relatively conservative figure). A very nice bar by the way, with original ribbons, and well worth the restoration effort. Be patient, the right pieces will come along at the right price. Oh, I long for the "old days" with cheaper prices! Best of luck! "SPM"

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! Yes folks, we have a winner! Hats off to Rick Research! The tag on the back of the ribbon bar has "Max Weise/ GERA/ TEL...(unreadable)". You have convinced me beyond any doublt that this is v. Lorck's ribbon bar. I am very grateful for the information that you have provided! You will be most welcome to utilize the piece for publication. A PM will follow. Thanks, "SPM"

[attachmentid=26529] Hello again: Just so I don't tick off Stogieman and Rick Research, I have included a scan of the reverse. The maker's tag is for "Max Weise". The moths had a nice snack on the backing at some point in the past! This piece came from a Russian ex-pat from an accumulation out of Russia. So, it was probably a WWII Soviet "vet pick-up/bring-back". "SPM"

[attachmentid=26528] Hello folks: Here is an example of a fellow who added his Johanniter Orden to his ribbon bar. This is the only one like it that I has seen until now. So Heiko, this is definately possible for a ribbon bar, although not proper. This is probably what the black ribbon is on your ribbon bar. This must not have been too uncommon as someone was making devices for this Order for the ribbon bars. Thanks, "SPM"

[attachmentid=26527] Hello again: Here is the reverse. "SPM"

[attachmentid=26522] Hello folks: Here is a W?rttemberg Landwehr Service Award 1st Class. These were awarded from 1891 until 1921. The cross has a silver body and a separate center which is made from gilded-silver. These pieces are a lot less common than the OEK price would indicate. The reverse center has "XX" in the center for twenty years of service. The reverse is made of one piece of silver and has no gilding. These crosses were apparently awarded to Landwehr Officers and doctors with an acceptable amount of service time. Thanks, "SPM"

Hello again folks: Sorry, I just can't leave this topic alone! I will now use "SPM" as my moniker to make everyone's life a bit easier when I write. A bit more digging in Hessenthal u. Schreiber reveals the following information. The terms "gepr?gten", "Pr?gung", "Gepr?ge" are all used when mentioning the Mecklenberg-Schwerin crosses from 1848 until 1914. This literally means "struck" or "coined" as in die-struck. They use the same terminology when describing the Bavarian 1866 campaign cross however, and those were in my opinion without a doubt cast. I believe that they used the term for everything unless they knew for certain that a piece was made by casting (i.e. cast iron pieces). We must remember that this text was published in 1940 and much of the information regarding the awards of the pre-1918 states was probably even difficult to find at that time as many years had elapsed since the Kingdoms, Grand Duchies, Duchies, etc. had ceased to exist. Interestingly enough, H. u. S. state on page 237 "Die Milit?r-Verdienstkreuze mit den Jahreszahlen 1848, 1849, 1859, 1864, 1866 sind bei sonst gleicher, ziemlich primitiver Ausf?hrung aus Gesch?tzbronze hergestellt". So, "primitive pieces made from cannon-bronze" apparently were noted for the 1848-1866 pieces. Now, the question for the 1870 pieces remains. Were there cast crosses made from cannon-bronze which are contemporaryily issued pieces? Are die-struck examples which are old possible? I believe that the answer to both of these questions is "yes". I also believe that all forgeries, counterfeits, etc. are certainly cast also. Sometimes, the more information one seeks, the more questions one has! Thanks Stogieman and Brian for your input! "SPM"

Hello Stogieman: Thanks for your comments. Yes, I agree, there are a few details of the 1870 FF cross that you sent back which look suspect. The suspension lug at the top is crude to the extreme. The stippling of the fields of the cross body also doesn't look proper. It is probably a counterfeit made to deceive collectors. The context with the highly suspect non-1870/71 issue EK is also another troubling factor. It was a good move sending it back. The 1870 FF cross that I have is not "pretty" at all either. In fact, I think that there are modern forgeries which look much nicer. I do think that it is genuine in spite of/ because of its ugliness. When it comes to these, I believe that all forgeries were cast, but that not all castings are forgeries. We are in full agreement. If you could see the piece that I have in person, I think that you would probably lean toward it being genuine. The context in which I picked it up was good and it looks nothing like the recent copies that were flowing out of Germany. I would like to see if there is anyone else out there who has original examples of these, or information about their manufacture. Sorry, to flog the dead horse, but I find the topic fascinating. Thanks for your patience Stogieman et al! Schie?platzmeister

[attachmentid=26386]Hello again: Here is an 1863/4 campaign cross from Saxony made by a casting process. Thanks, Schie?platzmeister

[attachmentid=26384] Hello again everyone: Here are a few examples of campaign crosses which are all original and were made by casting. All of them have suspension lugs which were an extension of the casting of the body of the crosses. First, here is a "family" of Bavarian 1866 campaign crosses. Thanks, Schie?platzmeister

Hello again: By comparison, the 1914 cross that I have is definately genuine and I believe that it is also cast in one piece with the arm edges being ground and polished to finish it. I simply think that this is how these things were made. Die striking would not be necessary to make these and would add many extra and more expensive steps to the manufacturing process. Hessenthal and Schreiber refer to the 1914 pieces as being made from "gilded cannon metal". Thanks, Schie?platzmeister

Hello Stogieman: Thanks for your comments. I agree that you should have returned the pieces that you show as they do not look like period pieces. My cross has the suspension ring soldered to the top of the cross. Hessenthal and Schreiber state that the crosses were made from gesch?tzbronze (cannon bronze from captured enemy cannon). They do not however state HOW they were made. In my opinion, the originals were cast in one piece as this would be consistant with the technology of the time, and there are crosses from many other German States from this period to show that this was a common practice for making such crosses out of gesch?tzbronze. Perhaps my piece is a forgery, but I do not think this the case (of course I am not impartial-no one thinks that THEIR stuff is ever fake!). Of course, all of the copies (no matter what age) are also made by casting! So, obtaining genuine pieces is difficult to say the least, with most pieces which are encountered being modern counterfeits. The mystery continues. Does anyone else have any of these, or any other information? Thanks, Schie?platzmeister

Hello David: Dr. v. Hessenthal u. Schrieber list the following: 482. Gold medal awarded 1840-1843, marked "BRANDT F.", 50mm, name of recipient engraved on rim 483. Silver medal awarded 1840-1843, marked "BRANDT F.", 50mm, " 484. Gold medal awarded 1843-1846, ", ", " 485. Gold medal awarded 1846-1847, marked "FICKENSCHER", ", " 486. Gold medal awarded 1847-1866, maked "BREHMER F.", ", " Of course there are more details listed regarding design, suspensions, ribbons, etc. Perhaps Wildcard is out there and could provide photos of some of the above-listed pieces. As far as recipients are concerned, perhaps someone out there has Hannoverian Court and State Handbooks from this period which probably list recipients. I hope that this helps, Schie?platzmeister