John R

Those are great images of your badge. Some of the best I have seen and wish all were posted in that detail. I have to agree with the maximum valuation provided by Gordon and the condition evaluation by Martin. Still, you have a bit of history there so it does have value. Final value will only be determined when you sell it. Maximum value in this case would be collector to collector rather than from a dealer. From a dealer, maybe 50% less than 450 euros since they have overhead, adverstising, etc, to contend with. Very hard to say. At least you know it is a period badge and a value from which to work. John

I agree due to lack of typical reverse indicators--thanks for all the replies. John

Good for you nesredep. Good work. John

Also, the sailor listed on the HSF doc was not a member of the Graf Spee crew. John

Interesting that this thread just came up since Gordon discussed it with me just a few days ago based on another zinc example that looked like it was made of tombak. Juncker apparently made such a high quality zinc badge that it fools you into thinking in was tombak. The hardware suggests otherwise however especially since Juncker did have a tombak version with the correct tomak hardware. IMO, all the badges posted are high quality zinc Juncker badges and relatively rare. John

Any other comments concerning the badge in post #7? John

Thanks Martin. John

Reverse

Bringing this back to the top as I want to post my latest addition, a cloth version of the U-boat badge, exactly the same as the one in Gordon's Torpedo Los. Note it is missing a bit off the left front bottom of the patch as you are looking at it. I agree that the eagle desgin is not great, but to me, this is not a big factor in these. All U-boat badges, whether patch or metallic, are small and only when we expand the badge to the size of our computer screens do we note artistic problems that we do not like. I am posting this so that we have both versions in one thread. John

Based on the reverse images posted by Gordon, then this example is not a Wiedmann? It has long been posted on WAF as a Wiedmann but challenged recently as not a Wiedmann. If not a Wiedmann, any opinions on what it is so I can correct the file. John

Your English is fine. Many of us know exactly how hard it is to write a technical question in a language not native--it is one thing to speak, another to translate, and another to write and to write about such a complicated subject as U-boat frontspanges. You are doing great. As Martin said, since these badges are heavily faked, and faked for far more than 20 years, unfortunately it is necessary to see detailed images of your badges. We would need clear (600 pixel and up) images of the front, back, back with pin down, pin up, and images of the letters themselves. While this is might be a project, a decent camera or scanner will make it easy. Scanner might be best unless you are used to taking very steady camera shots. Since you are getting a camera, you need a tripod, or a steady platform from which to take the photo. Slight movement ruins the image for our purposes. You need to also use the macro function, natural lighting if possible with flash off. Hope this helps. You can't go by emedals or any other website, the value of your badge is valued by the badge itself. It is very hard to compare since the condition and possible history of the badge (we call it the "story") influence value. Collector to collector is another value of course. The starting point in any case are the images. John

Nice badge at the top Martin, bubbling is great. Silver detail quite interesting also. John

Any idea who this officer was? I believe he was a Sperrbrecher officer, not sure though. Thanks, John

I also like the amount of bluing remaining on the pin. John

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And I will add this one from my collection. It could be a Shickle or Mayer, not really sure. Nice badge once again Bjorn. Note the stammrollen number on the reverse, meaning his assigned number to this particular destroyer (unknown destroyer) crew. John

The other thing is if the ribbon itself is very light, very delicate. The cellon and wire types have a much stiffer ribbon to support the heavier weight thread. Sounds like a Belfast to me though at this point.

To explain a bit, I am looking at the faint dots on the front of the tally around the letters. This is a characteristic of KM tallies made in cotton. The thread looks like cotton also of course, not cellon and certainly not gold wire. John

It did not used to be that hard to find but now it is. You need to stay on German ebay to find them. Three versions, cotton, cellon and gold wire. John

Gordon is correct in that the Belfast tally can make you very uncomfortable. I have attached one of them to this post. The ends are different lengths in accordance with the HMS style of cap ribbon and how it was tied, unlike the German which had equal ends. However, I think you stand a good chance that this is a cotton period example. The problem is that at 55 cm, its value is greatly diminished. I like to see them at 110 and above. Gordon is also correct in that to be 100% sure, we would need to see it at 110 cms and above vice cut down. What price is the seller asking? John

OK, like I said, just for information.

Hi Fernando, Would you please recheck the thickness. 2mm is probably off by 1 or 2 mm. John

Good to hear that. I thought I had a Hymenn badge for years until it was revealed it was not a Hymenn badge afterall. The hobby evolves and we do not know everything yet and probably never will. Another example is the Schwerin Berlin stamp on the back of some "juncker" type badges. Could be worse, most countries do not mark their badges and awards at all so know way you know who made it. You just try to make sure it is real, that is all. Could you do us a favor though: Please give us the height and width, thickness and weight and wingspan when you get the chance. I do not think it is going to reveal anything in particular, but nice to have. John

Gordon, I do have an observation about this image though. If you take the right badge and flip the hinge upside down, the wide part goes up and into the left hand badge position I think. What do you think? John

Part of the problem is that most collectors want to own a Schwerin and not a S&L I think and the badge at the top of the thread was sold as a Schwerin. Not the fault of the seller or the buyer since here we are, still discussing in great detail the badge. So if you want what has been deemed to be the cadillac (do they still make these) of badges, you do not want to accept that what you have might be something else--or at least it is not a welcome discussion. While the Schwerin design, as you have stated, left a lot to be desired in regards to the eagle head, if you wish to be generous to the badge while insulting eagles, I think on the uniform the Schwerin finish looked the best. I am not sure many of the wearers of the badge noticed anything since they did not blow the badge up to fill a computer screen of course. The Schwerin just glistens in quality and when on the dark blue service dress uniforms, it stands out in comparison to most other badges. Of course, the Hymenn style badge is great also as are others, but in general, Schwerin made a great badge in quality, if not always in design. To restate what has been said elsewhere and known to those that study the Schwerin series of U-boat badge, there are some other points of note. The smaller maker mark is only found on the later thicker neck badges with the square hook. Also there is a distinct difference between the top of the eagles wings on the early rouund wire and later square wire badges. This is that the top of the wing has a frosted finish on the earlier and a burnished finish on the later. You will find that the later burnished top of wing is more pronouced indicating that the die was slightly worked out. The early frosted wing in more flat, with almost a concave appearance. In the end, this thread is a great example of a forum working as it should. It is a discussion, not a debate, and once all the information is on the table so to speak, it is up to the collector to make a judgement call and make up their own mind on the artifact they possess or might possess. I think Fernando's attitude is the correct one and I am glad he is happy with KM-Spain's badge as a period example no matter who made it. John