Graham Stewart

Further to my last post the Leinster number 3329 was actually issued in early 1892, so now things are getting confusing. Whereas the 11357 number he has for the Royal Irish Fusiliers issued in September 1913 is however correct.

Brilliant research - well done. Just goes to show how one item can lead to something more defining when researching British Army personnel. Their regimental numbers are also of interest and in most cases can assist researchers too. In this case we know now that he would have enlisted sometime between 1908 and 1913 and we know this because most old Volunteer Battalions began renumbering their men from number '1' onwards on the creation of the Territorial Force in 1908.

If the location is Bakewell, Derbyshire(?), then you have to be looking at a Rifle Volunteer Corps located in that region. Had I been at home I could have assisted but I don't get back for another couple of days to get to my reference books. However the interesting thing about the photo is that the Corps to which he belongs is dresses in scarlet with a white lace knot on his cuff and collar, whereas among RVC's the most common uniform colour was infact grey(various shades) or dark green, so this does infact narrow the Corps down even more.

Very nice and always a pleasue to see that they remain within the family. They're in the same condition as those of my great grandfather and great uncle - unworn, although mine are still in their original boxes of issue. Anyway you will have noticed that he landed in France on 22nd Aug 1914 and although you may not be able to glean any more details from the Ancestry sites I would suggest you get hold of both his Silver War Badge and Medal Roll Sheet's from KEW. The SWB sheet will give you the exact date of enlistment and discharge as well as the cause of discharge and the battalion/depot from which he was discharged. The cause of discharge is usually under Kings Regulations Paragraph 392(xvi) or (xvi)a, but will sometimes be more specific i.e. GSW; Wounds; Gas Poisoning etc, as well as giving age at the time of discharge. The Medal Roll Sheet may or may not include any other battalions he may have served with while overseas, as not all casualties/sick soldiers were transferred to the UK to recover. Quite often on recovery men were sometimes posted to other battalions within their regiment, so it does help to get hold of this sheet too.

Always nice to see documentation as well as the medals themselves and I can add that his regimental number(3394004) doesn't actually belong to the Army Catering Corps, but actually belongs to the East Lancashire Regt block series which was 3377001 - 3433000. As his discharge document states he went onto serve with the Kings(Liverpool)Regt and as such his regimental number went with him unlike numbers issued from 1881-1920. His final port of call was the Army Catering Corps from which he was eventually discharged and their block number series ran from 10630001 to 10655000.

I've had a trawl throuhg the internet myself and one site in particular has a large selection of Army Lists to view on line, but it's a geneology site and the subsription is quite expensive even for a Westerner. I think you can also buy them as 'CD's, but really don't know what sorts of price and shipping costs you'd be looking at. Are there no Archive sites in India/Pakistan or regimental museums in that region which hold old copies of British Army List's, references to uniforms etc. Considering it was once "The jewel in the crown", I would have thought some archive material would be found somewhere?

You can see some coloured illustrations of uniforms from my own collection and other photo's here;- http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25563&st=0

The Army Lists, Harts Volunteer Lists should give the Volunteer Battalions of each Regiment and their facing Colours, but you have to remember that not all Volunteer Battalions wore scarlet - the most popular colour of Volunteer uniforms being Grey(various shades), followed by Rifle Green. Some carried these uniforms over into the new Territorial Force. The 1st V.B., Northumberland Fusiliers, later 4th Battalion, Northumberland Fusiliers(T.F.) wore grey until 1910. Ray Westlake published a couple of really good books on the Rifle Volunteers & Volunteer Battalions, which were well illustrated.

Not sure if this is true. From 1881-1900/02. 'Facing' colours virtually disappeared from the Regular Army, so that you were left with "Royal" regiments wearing blue facings and "non-Royal" regiments wearing white(English/Welsh), yellow(Scottish), green(Irish). At the same time I'm sure that not all Militia Battalions adopted these new facings and some may have continued wearing their old facings for quite a while. Nor were there two Militia Battalions per regiment - the Nothumberland Fusiliers certainly only had one Militia Battalion numbered the 3rd(Militia)Bn and later numbered 5th(Militia)Bn, while I believe both the Kings Royal Rifles and Rifle Brigade had quite a few Militia Battalions affiliated. Again places to look for Militia Battalions and facing colours are our 'Army Lists', 'Harts Mlitia Lists' and the book "The Constitutional Force", which is the story of the Miliita and it's Regiments.

Not sure of the patterns of tunic worn by these regiments, but if the Indian Army Lists are of the same fomat as our Army Lists, then facing colours should be mentioned for each individual regiment. There was also a small pocket sized book published between the war years which gave a brief history of each Indian Army unit, which included battle honours, coloured and black & white uniform plates and photographs. I actually have a copy of the book at home in the UK, which I believe was called "The Indian Army", but I can't remember who the publisher was.

Not had a lot of NF lately, but did manage to acquire this one - a lovely shot of an inspection of the 5th(?)Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers(TF) Band taken between 1909 and 1913. What was of interest to me was not only the superb colth badge arrangement on the Drum Majors right arm, but a closer inspection of the band members reveiled that one member seems to have retained his pre-1908 Volunteer drummers jacket which is identified by the 'Austrian' knot. The remainder of the drummers appear to be wearing the new 1909 pattern drummers jacket for wear by TF members, which has no knot. Nice to see the drummers leather aprons too as well as the leather holders on the belt for the 'fife' by other members of the band.

Or try this website for possible clarification;- http://www.ngw.nl/

I agree with fallschirmjager - that it is indeed a Gordon Highlander and with the addition of the plaid and wings to the shoulder straps indicate a band member. He doesn't appear to be either a piper or drummer/bugler, as none of those badges appear on his uniform. However he does have a single Good Conduct Badge on his left arm(i.e. chevron, point up), which indicates two years of good conduct.

Four senior ranks of the 4th Bn, Rifle Brigade, borrowed from "Soldiers of the Queen" website, clearly showing that their pillbox caps didn't have cord bosses attached to the crown.

Note the decorative lace patterns on the top of the original items compared with that for sale and also the fact that the cord boss is well off centre in the for sale item.

Two things which strike me is (1)it isn't rifle green and (2)why has a shoulder title been attached??? I may be wrong, but a pillbox cap for the KRR in my opininion should be rifle green, with possibly a splash of red, their facing colour. I'll trawl about for some prints showing it being worn.

Hi Ian - my phrase was "a Canadian Scottish unit", which could be one of many. He's certainly not wearing Black Watch collar badges as they didn't wear them with SD and sporrans usually reflected badges worn by the regiment into which they enlisted. Just because he was English I wouldn't discount him from serving with a Canadian unit during WWI, which is when this photo was probably taken. Have you tried tracking him down via the Medal Index Cards? He also appears to be wearing a medal ribbon, which could be South African War!

Going to stick my neck out on this one - simply because of the poor quality of the photo and say he appears to be serving with a Canadian Scottish unit and I place this observation on the fact that he's wearing what appears to be the Canadian General Service pattern collar badges, which would be a Kings Crown on a Maple Leaf, with words 'Canada' below. British units rarely wore collar badges with Service Dress during this period and they're not of any British Pattern that I know of.

For what it's worth this man isn't a Territorial, his number clearly indicates he's a regular, which would include New Army batteries - they were numbered from 1-600,000. At the time of the award he's simply serving with 'A' Battery, 315th Artillery Bde, R.F.A.(T.F.), which was serving with one of the T.F.Divisions. I've none of my books with me, so can't give the exact Division. The numbering system for the T.F. Artillery was similar to the T.F.Infantry and on enlistment you received a four figure number. In 1917 a new system was introduced for T.F. artillerymen, which was six figure, but in a seperate number series from those of the regular/new army artillery. When looking at MIC's to the T.F.Artillery you usually find both four figure and six figure numbers on the card.

Although not a medal collector myself, I find this group absolutely superb. Hopefully you'll be able to find out more about the previous proud owner as it's such a rare group. From what I gather the R.A.F. were in total control of Iraq when it was British Protectorate during the 1920/30's and the ground force element was provided by the R.A.F. Armoured Car Squadrons, there being no R.A.F. Regiment during this period.

I can't read the images of his Service Record very well, but he seems to have been posted to the Northern Command Depot 1916(?)and from there to the 15th Reserve Cavalry Regiment after service with the 14th Hussars. Not being able to see them very clearly I can't tell if he is a wartime re-enlistment hence being renumbered and then posted to the 14th Hussars. Had he stuck by his original terms of service(5yrs with the Colours - 7yrs with the Reserve) then he would have received his complete discharge in 1908, but as I've said I can't see them clearly. Ah - now I see - he re-engages to complete his 21(?)yrs service and the posting to the 14th Hussars is earlier on so he isn't re-enlisting.

I can't read the images of his Service Record very well, but he seems to have been posted to the Northern Command Depot 1916(?)and from there to the 15th Reserve Cavalry Regiment after service with the 14th Hussars. Not being able to see them very clearly I can't tell if he is a wartime re-enlistment hence being renumbered and then posted to the 14th Hussars. Had he stuck by his original terms of service(5yrs with the Colours - 7yrs with the Reserve) then he would have received his complete discharge in 1908, but as I've said I can't see them clearly.

Being an officers cap, I'm sure it should have small RAMC buttons in bronze and not General Service buttons, which are for the other ranks SD Cap.

Don't know what a "crimper" is, but Coldstream may not be too short of the mark with the civvy possibly being a "recruiting agent". I have a copy of "Instructions for Recruiters" c.1895 at home and in them is a section dedicated to recruting agents, who it appears were paid for their services.